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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Does Shotokan have the flashiest/coolest katas? |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| I love the linear, to the point, explosive Shotokan katas. I'm curious how it's percieved among other Karate stylists - are the katas held in high regard? |
if We look at the history of Karate , most of the Shotokan katas are variations of Shorin ryu katas with Japanese influence. I have practiced both styles and I see Shotokan katas more in the sport side of the spectrum. if you try to practice Shotokan kata with CQC in mind you get the Shorin-ryu kata again.
In kata competitions, Shotokan kata like Unsu is being used in final rounds all the time. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Again my exposure to it was watching a few of my buddies classes when I was young. It wasn't for me and I'll leave it at that. It also depends on what art's Unsu you speak of and who is performing it. We do not practice this Kata but other arts that I have been around or exposed to do and I would not call it flashy. If anything I would rate it based on difficulty and the amount of applications that it contains. I wouldn't consider Kusanku flashy the way we perform it but I have seen some renditions of it that I guess you could say was flashy.
Since I have not learned this Kata and have only seen it performed a few times I doubt I am qualified to talk about the Kata on any terms other than what I think about it after watching it. So no I do not think it's flashy.
However I have not seen, or at least I don't think I have seen, a Shotokan version of the Kata. I guess I'll have to watch some youtube vids and see what you're talking about.
To be clear - I am against changing Kata for the purpose of winning tournaments. This means making them flashy, adding jumps, spins, rolls or anything else that does not belong in the Kata.
When you change the Kata you loose the intent (applications or Bunkai if you wish) and thus change the art all together. So if it has been altered to impress judges I wouldn't like it and I would feel that it has no use in the arts. Sorry but I guess I'm just not a flash and glitz kind of guy. I look at their value based on what they contain not for what they look like. Appearances only matter to those that do not understand that the art is within the Kata and this and only this is what matters, at least to me.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I just got done watching a few examples of Shotokan's version and also of Shito-Ryu and Wado-Ryu.
My personal assessment based on no knowledge other than watching the Kata and using experience based on my art...
Shotokan - The first video I watched looked like it was developed for tournaments and I will agree it was flashy. The second video was of a Japanese instructor in his dojo and it was not flashy at all. I would say complicated and the difficulty level was high but not flashy by any means. In fact it resembled the Shito-Ryu version I have seen one of my friends perform in the past.
Then I watched the Wado version and again not flashy.
Then I watched the Shito version, just to refresh my old memory, and I have to say I much prefer this version to Shotokan's and Wado's version. It had no "flash" and some of the elements were executed very similar to how we would execute them.
Not that it matters as again I am no expert on Unsu. But since you asked...
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Looking at a Shindokan Kata list, I would not label them flashy and/or cool because the way that we were taught, to label them flashy and/or cool is an act of dishonor across the board. So, because of that, I can't bring myself to label them as such...but to an observer, I suppose they might be just that.
Often times, we of Shindokan, wear gloves with our sensitivity...much to often!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Why does Shorin Ryu have this salsa-like shaking motions with the hips when performing kata? I don't see it in the other Karate styles like Goju Ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin
Last edited by Prototype on Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| Why does Shorin Ryu have this salsa-like chaking motions with the hips when performing kata? I don't see it in the other Karate styles like Goju Ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin |
I think I know what you’re talking about, but I’m not 100% sure. Could you post a link for an example?
If it’s what I’m thinking about, it’s for power generation. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: |
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I’m going to go against the grain a bit here, but hear me out...
I like the “flashy” katas like Unsu and Kanku Sho. While the flashier versions may lose something in bunkai terms, they gain some things in other areas. They teach coordination, balance, body control, etc. Basically, they’re helping the karateka develop athleticism. It’s like the sensei at a Taika Oyata RyuTe Renmei said when we were doing kicks during kihon: kick as high as you reasonably can; for flexibility and coordination only, NOT for actual self defense!” He said it over and over. We even did a few spinning kicks, and he said the same thing. During actual partner drills and kumite, we never kicked above our own waist.
Mas Oyama changed some of the kihon and subsequently the kata he learned in Shotokan and Goju Ryu; some of them look exaggerated. IMO it doesn’t matter what it looks like, so long as you know what you’re doing and can apply it. Same goes for the “non-flashy” kata; in true resisted application it’ll never look exactly like it does during kata. And everyone will have to alter it somewhat depending on their personal strengths and weaknesses, and further alter it to fit the attack coming.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with making a kata look “prettier” for competition, so long as it’s not butchered and so long as the actual intent is still intact, functional, and can be passed down. But I get it; some things can get lost. Seido Juku and I think just about every Kyokushin offshoot changed the end of Pinan 3 from the kick/sweep/whatever at the last count to a lateral jump. The jump makes zero sense in bunkai, whereas the kick makes a lot of sense. A lot of people came through the ranks not knowing it’s been changed and therefore couldn’t pass on the true intent. |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| Why does Shorin Ryu have this salsa-like chaking motions with the hips when performing kata? I don't see it in the other Karate styles like Goju Ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin |
I think I know what you’re talking about, but I’m not 100% sure. Could you post a link for an example?
If it’s what I’m thinking about, it’s for power generation. |
Why was it rejected by Funakoshi? |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| As much as I love Shotokan, I have seen some chief instructors who can't kick to save their lives (very stiff side and roundhouse kicks) , most can punch though. Are kicks a relatively low priority in Shotokan given their conservative use in Katas? |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| Why does Shorin Ryu have this salsa-like chaking motions with the hips when performing kata? I don't see it in the other Karate styles like Goju Ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin |
I think I know what you’re talking about, but I’m not 100% sure. Could you post a link for an example?
If it’s what I’m thinking about, it’s for power generation. |
Why was it rejected by Funakoshi? |
It is for power generation, although it is often exaggerated in training, both for biomechanical study, and to account for the shrinking effect of stress/adrenaline. Not all Shorin-Ryu people use the hips that much, and some use it more. Just as an example of the range you can find, below are videos of Uema Yasuhiro, myself, and Shinzato Katsuhiko, all running Naihanchi Shodan, but with drastically different hip usage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBKAZ3WxX78
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbCed1qlJUW/?taken-by=karateobsession
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUcAJrv78MY
Plenty of Goju-Ryu people use the hips that way, as well. Also, some of the hardest punches I have seen thrown by Kyokushin fighters have been done with very effective "hip quaking," as we call it in our system, despite them not doing it in kata. To the best of my knowledge, it wasn't rejected by Funakoshi, and you can see some evidence of that in old Shotokan footage. Now, it is possible that Funakoshi Gichin didn't learn how to use the hips in that way, or wasn't very good at it, or simply didn't like it. I tend to think that, if he did know how to do it, the stances are what killed it in Shotokan.
As we can see from his books, Funakoshi Gichin used the more natural Okinawan stances of Shorin-Ryu. It was his son, Funakoshi Gigo, that lowered and lengthened them to what we see today. The trouble is, once you make your stances as long and low as modern Shotokan has become, you CAN'T move your hips the way you are referring to. The hips simply don't have enough range of motion left. These stances also cause a lot of strain and wear on the hips and lower back, which is why so many senior practitioners of styles of karate that use such stances have bad hips and back pain, at least in my experience. That actually goes to your second post regarding their ability to kick--it's hard to kick well if your hips are in pain. Now, that is easily adjusted by going back to higher, more natural stances as you age, regardless of the style you practice, but I know plenty of dojo where such compromise isn't acceptable, so that could be an issue in that regard.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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on the post.
