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47MartialMan
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2822
Styles: Small Variety....."Spice of Life"
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 Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmn, any sites on Ishin Ryu Jiu Jitsu history/lineage?
Speaking of, what is the correct spelling-Jiu Jitsu or Ju Jitsu?
I thought the ancient of these, if I can recall, Tenjin,Takenouchi, Soushitsu, Sekiguchi, the famous Kito, and the famous Takeda family. Hmmn, did I leave out any?
I thought there was a Ishin Ryu Karate system also? |
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AngelaG
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 865
Location: Devon, UK
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| 47MartialMan wrote: |
Speaking of, what is the correct spelling-Jiu Jitsu or Ju Jitsu?
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There is no 'correct spelling'. Kanji does not transalate perfectly into English, so the best you can do it spell it as you see it. Therefore, such as with karate, you may get variations. (Enpi / Empi in Karate)
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47MartialMan
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2822
Styles: Small Variety....."Spice of Life"
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| AngelaG wrote: |
| 47MartialMan wrote: |
Speaking of, what is the correct spelling-Jiu Jitsu or Ju Jitsu?
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There is no 'correct spelling'. Kanji does not transalate perfectly into English, so the best you can do it spell it as you see it. Therefore, such as with karate, you may get variations. (Enpi / Empi in Karate) |
Interesting you should mention Kanji.
Or Kana, Hebon-shiki romaji or Hepburn, and kunrei-shiki romaji. |
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AngelaG
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 865
Location: Devon, UK
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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I guess it's the same with anything that doesn't use the same alphabet we do.
*shrugs* I guess it's neither here nor there, until the mis-pronounciation changes the meaning (as in Ju-Jutsu, or Kung-Fu)
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47MartialMan
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2822
Styles: Small Variety....."Spice of Life"
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, from the study of etymology, many things are interpreted and/or mis-interpreted.
What someone inteprets may well be a mis-interpretation, or vice versa. |
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| White Warlock wrote: |
| The name of this ju-jutsu system is "ishin ryu ju-jitsu," created in 1990. Spelled differently than the karate form created a century ago. |
I saw a nit, and decided to pick it. Anyway, Shimabukuro Tatsuo's Isshin Ryu was termed that in the 50s, not a century ago.
As this thread has gone every which way but forward, apparently, so shall I.
Pointing out that Isshin Ryu is about 50 years old wasn't my attack on it. Although even then, Tatsuo's actions caused quite a bit of consternation among many Okinawan masters. This contrasts with the actions of his younger brother (Eizo) who started his own style Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, but as the continuation of his teacher's teachings. Eizo, by the way, was officially granted the 10th dan rank at the age of 36. How's that for quick advancement? He was respected in the karate community, and that rank was not contested.
Okinawan teachers classically didn't really adopt names for what they taught other than the generic "te" (ti) or toute (toudi, toude) or in a publication that I want to say was in the first decade of the 20th century (or maybe the last of the 19th), the actual first record of the use "karate" in print. They didn't have to. For the longest time, they usually on taught within the family or friends of the family or their friends.
This was something the Japanese found strange, as the ryu system has always been huge in Japan. So all Okinawan karate names are still relatively new.
As far as someone calling it Ishin, it sounds a little suspect, but who knows? It is entirely plausible that the founder of it in 1990 maybe mispelled it unknowingly. Or maybe he like the connotations of Isshin "One heart" and wanted to use it, but decided not to use the double s to avoid confusion. "One heart" isn't very original. Nor is Ikken, "one sword", yet you find these a lot in Japanese sword styles.
Not that I'm advocating people blatanly ripping of someone else's organization, no matter what the age. This is just my ramblings, anyway, with some historical tidbits here and there.
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gcav
Blue Belt
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 284
Location: U.S.A.
Styles: Several different Japanese and Korean styles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:27 am Post subject: |
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Insightful indeed. But thats just my interpretation.
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GhostlySykanRyu
Green Belt
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 393
Location: Pennsylvania
Styles: Using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:20 am Post subject: |
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"Speaking of, what is the correct spelling-Jiu Jitsu or Ju Jitsu?"
-According to the Gracie's, it should be spelled "Jujutsu". I find it very strange that they didn't conform to that, must have been well...compyright issues.
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GhostlySykanRyu
Green Belt
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 393
Location: Pennsylvania
Styles: Using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:20 am Post subject: |
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"Speaking of, what is the correct spelling-Jiu Jitsu or Ju Jitsu?"
-According to the Gracie's, it should be spelled "Jujutsu". I find it very strange that they didn't conform to that, must have been well...copyright issues.
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To condemn the art of another is to condemn your own as well. We all have the same origin. |
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:11 am Post subject: |
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The confusion comes from the fact that the Japanese alphabet is syllable-based (I forget the scientific term for it). In other words, you have the vowels, "a, i, u, e, o" the consonant "n" and everything else is "ka, ki, ku, ke, ko", "sa, shi, su, se, so", "ya, yu, yo" etc.
The first character in "jujutsu" is actually a combination of "ji" and "yu" to form what looks like "Jyu". The vowel sound is actually elongated, so the full character is "Jyuu", which means softness, gentleness, tender, etc.
The second character is "jutsu", which just means "skill" or "technique" or "art", but in this case, refers to a combative discipline. Strangely enough, it is never used in the japanese language with the alternate pronunciation of "jitsu". Like the previous one, the absolute technical spelling of this is "jyutsu".
So if you had microsoft IME and you wanted to type in the word for "jujitsu" in kanji (chinese characters), this is what you would type in exactly: "jyuujutsu". That is what you would also write out if you were simply writing it in the japanese syllabic alphabet.
So, where does that lead us? You can even look it up in a japanese dictionary, and it will say "Jyuujutsu" in the Japanese font, yet will come out as "Jujitsu" in the English meaning. Furthermore, it is commonly accepted that "Ju" takes the place of "Jyu" in terms of romanization. Of course, there is an extra "u" in there that most people leave out, but that is the same for "Toukyou", which is commonly called "Tokyo".
So now, it boils down to the fact that there is no commonly accepted way to write it, and even the more common ways of writing it are not technically correct. A Japanese dictionary will give you that IN ENGLISH, it could be Jujitsu or Jujutsu. I have seen in some dictionaries that there is a distinction in that BJJ is called Brazilian Jiujitsu. This may even have been done on the Japanese part to enforce the difference? I don't know.
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on the post.
