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conrad665
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 158

Styles: Shotokan Karate, Ashihara Karate, Judo, Iaido

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
conrad665 wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:


To the bold above. What about Morote Gari or Kuchiki Taoshi?


There are many techniques in judo that attack the legs directly, but they have been removed from the competitions, because they are too dangerous or wrestlers are just so good at them that they dominate judo championships (as I heard from Sensei). Therefore, we are not taught those techniques anymore.


That’s a shame. I could maybe see removing them from competition but I don’t get removing efficiently viable techniques all together from the curriculum.


They look really efficient, but we never practice them. Maybe Sensei thinks it is still early for us newbies. Once someone tried ura nage on me and I couldn't get up for about a minute. Both uke and tori need to be experienced for advanced techniques, I guess I cannot think of myself taking the fall after kuchiki taoshi, for example, especially if it comes as a surprise attack.

Nevertheless, I will ask Sensei if he will ever teach us those techniques one day
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2360
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
conrad665 wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:


To the bold above. What about Morote Gari or Kuchiki Taoshi?


There are many techniques in judo that attack the legs directly, but they have been removed from the competitions, because they are too dangerous or wrestlers are just so good at them that they dominate judo championships (as I heard from Sensei). Therefore, we are not taught those techniques anymore.


That’s a shame. I could maybe see removing them from competition but I don’t get removing efficiently viable techniques all together from the curriculum.

Some schools focus on competition, while others teach teach far more of the complete art. A lot of judoka are pretty upset about the current Judo rule set, claiming that many places won’t teach the techniques that are barred from competition. I think Judo has nearly always suffered from this in some schools, but I think the newest rule changes eliminated a lot of stuff.

Very similar to some TKD and karate schools only teaching the sport version of their art. IMO Judo was one of the best arts as far as standardization across the art goes; you can walk into Judo clubs practically anywhere and know what you’re getting. This weakens that quite a bit, which IMO is a shame.
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conrad665
Orange Belt
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Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 158

Styles: Shotokan Karate, Ashihara Karate, Judo, Iaido

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:


Some schools focus on competition, while others teach teach far more of the complete art. A lot of judoka are pretty upset about the current Judo rule set, claiming that many places won’t teach the techniques that are barred from competition. I think Judo has nearly always suffered from this in some schools, but I think the newest rule changes eliminated a lot of stuff.

Very similar to some TKD and karate schools only teaching the sport version of their art. IMO Judo was one of the best arts as far as standardization across the art goes; you can walk into Judo clubs practically anywhere and know what you’re getting. This weakens that quite a bit, which IMO is a shame.


Actually, that is the very first reason why I left my karate club, I was sick of its turning direction to competitions and nothing else. Probably because I'm a beginner in judo, everything is new and seems amusing to me, but I am afraid I will feel the same after some years. And it seems not many new techniques are being introduced at the same speed as old techniques are removed. I am not very familiar with sports judo-I do not watch videos very often, but I hope sparring in judo will not turn into sparring in karate, in which only a few techniques (like kizami zuki and ura mawashi geri) are used.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

conrad665 wrote:
JR 137 wrote:


Some schools focus on competition, while others teach teach far more of the complete art. A lot of judoka are pretty upset about the current Judo rule set, claiming that many places won’t teach the techniques that are barred from competition. I think Judo has nearly always suffered from this in some schools, but I think the newest rule changes eliminated a lot of stuff.

Very similar to some TKD and karate schools only teaching the sport version of their art. IMO Judo was one of the best arts as far as standardization across the art goes; you can walk into Judo clubs practically anywhere and know what you’re getting. This weakens that quite a bit, which IMO is a shame.


Actually, that is the very first reason why I left my karate club, I was sick of its turning direction to competitions and nothing else. Probably because I'm a beginner in judo, everything is new and seems amusing to me, but I am afraid I will feel the same after some years. And it seems not many new techniques are being introduced at the same speed as old techniques are removed. I am not very familiar with sports judo-I do not watch videos very often, but I hope sparring in judo will not turn into sparring in karate, in which only a few techniques (like kizami zuki and ura mawashi geri) are used.


Ok, so something you should be aware of in actual fighting. Both sparring and competition, and as a direct result, serious self defense.
What works, works. People use what is effective for them. One of the reasons to DO alive training such as randori and shiai is to learn what is really effective against an intelligently resisting opponent.

One of the best Judoka to ever live, Toshihiko Koga, used one throw most of the time. He KNEW the others, could defend against them, and could and did use them as set ups, but his weapon was Ippon Seoi-nage.

Before you can worry about what the rules restrict or why, hint it's a lot more complicated than your Sensei is telling you, you first need to develop a weapon that is effective for you in the rule set you are going to be playing in.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

conrad665 wrote:
JR 137 wrote:


Some schools focus on competition, while others teach teach far more of the complete art. A lot of judoka are pretty upset about the current Judo rule set, claiming that many places won’t teach the techniques that are barred from competition. I think Judo has nearly always suffered from this in some schools, but I think the newest rule changes eliminated a lot of stuff.

Very similar to some TKD and karate schools only teaching the sport version of their art. IMO Judo was one of the best arts as far as standardization across the art goes; you can walk into Judo clubs practically anywhere and know what you’re getting. This weakens that quite a bit, which IMO is a shame.


Actually, that is the very first reason why I left my karate club, I was sick of its turning direction to competitions and nothing else. Probably because I'm a beginner in judo, everything is new and seems amusing to me, but I am afraid I will feel the same after some years. And it seems not many new techniques are being introduced at the same speed as old techniques are removed. I am not very familiar with sports judo-I do not watch videos very often, but I hope sparring in judo will not turn into sparring in karate, in which only a few techniques (like kizami zuki and ura mawashi geri) are used.


I would suggest you buy and read Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano. It is a complete (or at least based on my training I believe it is) syllabus of the founders art. Based on what you are saying you'll be surprised at the amount of techniques that are contained that are not taught. If nothing else it will give you a complete picture of the art. When I took it, it was heavily based on self defense and yes competition as well. But it did have the self defense component at that time.

When I was studying Judo my Sensei was old generation and taught all of the techniques including Atemi Waza which is not really taught today as I understand it. At that time he would tell us that we could not use Kani Basami and Daki Age (sorry if spelled wrong, it's been a while since I studied) in competition. I believe there might have been maybe one or two more but I can't remember which but I do remember these two which I actually liked, either way, he taught them all to us. We just couldn't use a few when we competed.

I get not allowing a throw or grappling techniques due to the dangers or safety concerns but to ban them altogether is IMHO a travesty. You loose a portion of the art. At the very least they should be taught to Yudansha so they are not lost.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2360
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

conrad665 wrote:
JR 137 wrote:


Some schools focus on competition, while others teach teach far more of the complete art. A lot of judoka are pretty upset about the current Judo rule set, claiming that many places won’t teach the techniques that are barred from competition. I think Judo has nearly always suffered from this in some schools, but I think the newest rule changes eliminated a lot of stuff.

Very similar to some TKD and karate schools only teaching the sport version of their art. IMO Judo was one of the best arts as far as standardization across the art goes; you can walk into Judo clubs practically anywhere and know what you’re getting. This weakens that quite a bit, which IMO is a shame.


Actually, that is the very first reason why I left my karate club, I was sick of its turning direction to competitions and nothing else. Probably because I'm a beginner in judo, everything is new and seems amusing to me, but I am afraid I will feel the same after some years. And it seems not many new techniques are being introduced at the same speed as old techniques are removed. I am not very familiar with sports judo-I do not watch videos very often, but I hope sparring in judo will not turn into sparring in karate, in which only a few techniques (like kizami zuki and ura mawashi geri) are used.


Competitive Judo is quite different than sport karate. In point fighting (the main type), it’s start-stop, stopping with a scorer point, then restarting. The technique landed is hypothetical, in a sense; how do you really know that kick to the head or punch to the stomach would’ve been enough to end the fight? If I point-fight a 12 year old and he legitimately beats me without me letting him, does that genuinely mean he can beat me up? Does that genuinely mean he’s capable of defending himself against me? Not a chance.

Then you have Judo competition. If a 12 year old genuinely throws me without me letting him, he actually did it. I’m on the ground and he’s controlling me. No hypothetical there. If he throws me, controls me and chokes me out or submits me, there’s nothing hypothetical*

Judo competition is honest. Not a perfect barometer to gauge the ability to completely defend oneself, but IMO far more than “good enough.” If I’m coming at you, punching and kicking, and you can initiate a throw and follow up that chokes me or breaks a joint, there’s no question what if you’re doing is effective or not. If you’re simulating or lightly doing groin kick, throat chop, punch to the nose, it’s only really working in your own mind. It might, it might not.

So Judo competition and point-fighting shouldn’t really be compared. Competitive Judo teaches far more realistic and useful self defense that’s easy to prove it actually worked than point fighting ever did. We could argue if a Judo ippon would’ve actually ended the fight, but if you throw someone flat on their back with you on top of them and adding more force to it on concrete rather than a mat, it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out you could’ve easily followed up with a choke or submission if the person wasn’t done yet.

* Sure, submissions and chokes could be argued as hypothetical. But if you’ve got a choke applied and I tap right before the lights go out, we all know it works. If you’ve got my elbow bent backwards and I tap before you go too far, we all know it would’ve worked if you followed through.
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conrad665
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Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 158

Styles: Shotokan Karate, Ashihara Karate, Judo, Iaido

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked Sensei if we will ever learn techniques besides competitions, and he told me that in seminars all over the world, the instructors are told not to teach such techniques to their students. He said sometimes, out of habit, his hand slips to the legs of his opponents to apply some dangerous techniques, so it is thought students should not obtain such habits at the beginning. I am fortunate that Kodokan Judo is available in my school's library I will definitely check it out.

I compared sports judo and sports karate in the sense that only a few techniques are used in karate competitions. That is, two punches (kizami and gyaku zuki) and two kicks (mawashi and ura mawashi geri) are the ones practiced 99% of the time (at least in my previous club). Ushiro geri, yoko geri and uraken, for example, are rarely used. Elbows are never used-at least in Shotokan, although they exist in katas. Yamazuki must be forbidden, I don't know. Judokas have a richer repertoire, as far as I understand. I hope one day it will not turn into what sports karate did.
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