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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14244
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Well if I ever get out to Tulsa I'll drop in on both of you. We'll prove it on the floor Bob.

Now we're talking!! I look forward to that day!! We'll allow the floor to do its job while we train...but the floor will be very well pleased at the 3 of us, this I'm for sure!!



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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Tempest wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
I really hate to be so opinionated again but what was that??????????????
Ego much?

That was neither informative or useful IMHO. Nothing against Korean arts whatsoever but why does every known art have to have a ground fighting element when it never did before?

I would have more respect for this man if he were showing fighting from the ground applications rather than ground fighting applications. Why would anyone go to a TKD school to learn ground fighting????????

I get that this is a weak point for many of us and our arts but learning a few moves online or during a seminar does not a master make. Even I can see the basic understanding of the applications.

I guess that means that a doctor can perform surgery after watching it being performed by someone with those actual skills?

I think I'll make a ground fighting video and sell it. I'm sure people would flock to buy it. For martial arts bloopers that is.


See Matsu, this is why I would love to train Karate with you. If I were in Kentucky I would probably try and do that.

The ability to admit when you don't know everything.
Most of my regular training partners in Judo and Jiujitsu will be the first to direct you somewhere else if you come looking for striking training, even though several of them ARE black belts in Karate/Tae-kwon-do and one of them is a former pro kickboxer.
I don't even list Karate among my styles HERE though I have been doing it off and on for 20+ years. The thing is, it's still not my area of expertise.

Yet, when I speak to people, in my area anyway, who have maybe 6 months to a year part time training in a grappling discipline they will be happy to tell me all about how they are great at it.

Marketing. It's all just marketing. And don't think that the Jiu-jitsu schools are immune to this either. Commercial martial arts schools are simply vulnerable to marketing based ego drives or ego-based marketing drives.


If your ever in Kentucky or if I am ever in Oklahoma I'd love to train with you. You can teach me how not to become a pretzel.

My problem with that video is that they have never, as far as I know, had a ground fighting element to their art. I train in what I call old school Suidi (Shuri-te) and we do have a small element of ground fighting but it's not what those today would consider ground fighting. It comes from Gou Quan or Dog boxing. It's mainly fighting from the ground with the intent of getting back to our feet which is where I want to be. Its not fighting on the ground and rolling around with someone waiting for them to make a mistake so I can twist them into a pretzel knot. Its used to damage the opponent, create enough space or take them down so you can get up.

I have nothing against those arts that recognize they have a weakness and want to learn how to improve it. What I have a problem with is these high ranked instructors passing off basic level skills to their students as if they will be able to contend with a BJJ practitioner in their element. Its irresponsible and dangerous. Make your money selling something that you actually know about.

I personally would never want someone to film me fighting a BJJ guy if it went to the ground because they would hear and see things that would be a huge source of embarrassment for me for the rest of my life. I'm not a ground fighter nor do I claim to be. As you said my expertise is on my feet. Why then would I learn a few moves off of a Youtube video or from a class/seminar I took and pass it off to my students to give them false confidence in a game they can not win? This is not the responsible behavior that I would expect from a high ranking teacher of an art. It personally sickens me.

I took Judo for a few years (Not a BB) and can tell you that his hold down skills are a joke. That coming from a Yonkyu in Judo (me) commenting on the hold down skills of a grand master (in his art). And believe me when I say that if I think that is a basic knowledge it's less than that because I only have a basic knowledge and can execute better hold down skills than he was. That's truly not saying much about this man's skill because I... well I'm not that good at it.

I say stick to what you know and if you want your students to learn how to be effective on the ground create a relationship with a local MMA or BJJ or Jujutsu instructor and have them go their to learn the art and maybe he can send his students to you for striking skills. Don't teach it as if you know what you're doing. As pointed out in another post, just because you wear that belt does not make you that grade in another art.

Well that's going to get me into another rant about grades from one art thinking they deserve the same in a different art. I'll stop here or I'll be angrily hitting keys all night and won't be able to sleep.

The point is we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. If you wish to make money from your students then do it teaching them something you actually know and give them value for their hard earned money not a pipe dream that will get them twisted into a pretzel knot.


So if I may interject- grappling is grappling. Whether one is attempting to disengage or attack it’s all going to be the same.

As to what you want to accomplish with it- that’s more appropriately called strategy. Technique would be how the move is done and whether it’s efficient or not. Strategy would be how you apply this technique.

In regards to styles and what it means to in “grappling style x” it used to tell you the strategy they’d use. Information is all over the place now, so the lines between styles have become blurred. For example, catch wrestling and ban used to be polar opposites, but nowadays most bjj practitioners are essentially catch wrestlers- mostly because they do not know how to pass the guard
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's just a difference in terminology or the definition of the terminology.

But to your point, yes it's a strategy thing more so than a technique thing.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
I think it's just a difference in terminology or the definition of the terminology.

But to your point, yes it's a strategy thing more so than a technique thing.


Sure! But terminology and definitions are quite important no?

I mean, if someone calls for a ko uchi gari and you throw an o uchi gari you're not going to end up with the same thing....
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true and you are correct.

I just meant that what we call ground fighting and what most now days calls ground fighting are two different things. It's the focus and goal of the technique that I speak of when I say terminology.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14244
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You take the high road, and I'll take the low road; semantics can be the bane of the MA existent...who's correct, who's not...who's pure, who's not...who's effective, who's not...so on and so forth!!

What I call this and that, might not be the same for the next person, no matter how hard I try to explain it to that individual, the meeting of the minds are so far apart.

All I can do is smile!!

















Wait...

Proof is on the floor!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!!
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
You take the high road, and I'll take the low road; semantics can be the bane of the MA existent...who's correct, who's not...who's pure, who's not...who's effective, who's not...so on and so forth!!

What I call this and that, might not be the same for the next person, no matter how hard I try to explain it to that individual, the meeting of the minds are so far apart.

All I can do is smile!!

















Wait...

Proof is on the floor!!


Yes sir it absolutely is.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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