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Bart the Lover
Yellow Belt
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 99
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 Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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from the ground up: thanks for clarifying your thoughts on the accent
thing. I see what you are saying now.
I'm sorry to be pedantic, but a regional dialect is not the same as an
accent. A dialect refers to actual words and grammar used in a particular
region. An accent is how those words are spoken, the rhythm and
pronunciation used (I think). Two people may have the same accent, but
a different dialect.
| Quote: |
| how many people do you know born in an english speaking country where they are educated in english have an accent of their native country? |
I remember seeing a documentary about immigration which featured a
girl who spoke in a very distinctive Scottish/Chinese hybrid accent. Two
words would sound Scottish, and the next two would sound Chinese. Until
I saw the documentary, I would not have thought this was even possible!
I don't know anyone who does this, but that does not mean it doesn't
exist. Who knows? I understand your skepticism, though.
| Quote: |
| that's the distinction we have here in uk. |
Obviously it hasn't reached my neck of the woods yet!
Regards,
Bart the Lover |
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Drunken Monkey
Black Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3559
Location: bar italia
Styles: white chocolate profiteroles and natas....
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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well the scottish/chinese thing is kinda different.
you have to ignore the fact that the english spoken has a scottish accent on it as it's the native english.
what you're left with is person who was brought up speaking one language who had to learn another language.
see what i mean?
if you go back to what the guy said, he doesn't actually speak the language. therefore he wouldn't have actually used the thai language anyway, how would a language that he doesn't know affect his english?
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Drunken Monkey
Black Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3559
Location: bar italia
Styles: white chocolate profiteroles and natas....
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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well, lots of different people in london.
hence lots of mother tongues. in some cases people have more than one mother tongue but their first spoken language is still english...
to be honest, i'm not entirely sure on the names/terms they use for this but you get the gist...
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Drunken Monkey
Black Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3559
Location: bar italia
Styles: white chocolate profiteroles and natas....
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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somethig else just came to mind.
i guess he would pick up an accent if he father spoke english to him (with that accent) and that was the only english he was exposed to.
but the point still stands, he said his father spoke thai around him.
and any time in a local english speaking school would've gotten rid of it anyway.
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Warp Spider
Brown Belt
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 615
Location: The Origin of the Universe
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| from the ground up wrote: |
i don't think i have to ask everyone in the world.
i just have to ask every chinese person whether he's thai.
or ask every thai person if he is chinese.
your argument is rather weak.
by your rational, if i consistantly call you a pillock, then you are a pillock? probably a bad example but i think you get my meaning.
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That's not what I said. You claimed that "noone" used the term Chinese to refer to the far east. I wager there's at least one person who does, and maybe he is that person. Either way, what makes you think he's making it up? I don't see your logic behind that. Other people on the board you've never met and you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they aren't just making it up, why are you so fixated on the idea that this guy is making it all up?
EDIT: And no, only if I constantly referred to myself as "A pillock" would that make me "A pillock". I don't know what a pillock is, but "A pillock" would then be a proper name and would have no relation to something called a pillock. If I had a kid and named it "President," that wouldn't make it the President, but it would make it "President," as a proper name.
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Paladin - A holy beat down in the name of God! |
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Drunken Monkey
Black Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3559
Location: bar italia
Styles: white chocolate profiteroles and natas....
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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you're missing the point.
people from china are chinese.
people from thailand are thai.
it's as simple as that.
if you were of thai origins you WOULD not call yourself chinese.
likewise, if he had an accent, it WOULD not be chinese.
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wrestlingkaratechamp
Brown Belt
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 663
Location: Brooklyn
Styles: Brown belt shotkan karate/black belt 1st dan BJJ(8 years) high school wrestling champion
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| You have no friends that could have jumped in and helped you? |
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Warp Spider
Brown Belt
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 615
Location: The Origin of the Universe
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| from the ground up wrote: |
you're missing the point.
people from china are chinese.
people from thailand are thai.
it's as simple as that.
if you were of thai origins you WOULD not call yourself chinese.
likewise, if he had an accent, it WOULD not be chinese. |
Yes, but if you were talking to someone who might NOT have heard of thailand you might use chinese instead because they've probrably heard of China. Believe it or not, there are people who don't know what Thailand is, let alone that the word Thai relates to it. Most of the people from this board probrably know about Thailand but depending on where you live, there may be a lot of people who don't. For instance, my "Louisiana" accent has nothing to do with Louisiana, it's the people from Louisiana that have a similar accent because of my French background, yet Americans don't realize that. Similarly, his "Thai" accent may not be from China, but that won't stop people from saying he has a "Chinese" accent. I doubt I could tell the difference.
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Bart the Lover
Yellow Belt
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:11 am Post subject: |
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from the ground up:
My point with the Scottish/Chinese sounding girl was that evidently people
are idiosyncratic in their speech patterns. Generally, they will sound like
their peers, but not always.
You wrote:
| Quote: |
| what you're left with is person who was brought up speaking one language who had to learn another language. |
If I remember correctly, the girl was born and brought up in Scotland. She
picked up the Chinese accent because her parents spoke English with a
Chinese accent.
| Quote: |
| i guess he would pick up an accent if he father spoke english to him (with that accent) and that was the only english he was exposed to. |
Perhaps whitemanwithchineseaccent's father did speak English around
his. Maybe he is guessing where his accent came from. I don't suppose it
matters much to him.
| Quote: |
| and any time in a local english speaking school would've gotten rid of it anyway. |
This is the core of our disagreement! I maintain that it is possible (though
not likely) for someone to speak much more like their parents. People are
unpredictable. Some emigrants change accents to fit their adopted country
very quickly. Some never change. Others merge the two accents (like
Loyd Grossman), or switch between accents, like Sheena Easton (you may
not have heard of her, depending on your age!). My point is: if you are
exposed to your parents' accented English early in life (and maybe you
don't attend nursery school, or playgroup) you might not change once you
go to school. While I don't know anyone like this, I have known people
whose accent came from merging the local and their parents' accent. So
they were on the continuum, as it were.
Warp Spider wrote:
| Quote: |
| Yes, but if you were talking to someone who might NOT have heard of thailand you might use chinese instead because they've probrably heard of China. Believe it or not, there are people who don't know what Thailand is, let alone that the word Thai relates to it. |
This is a good point, but it doesn't apply here because
whitemanwithchineseaccent's father is from Thailand. So he has at least
heard of it, even if maybe his father doesn't really talk about it (for all we
know). Surely he wouldn't use the uninformed term used by his peers?
wrestlingkaratechamp17 wrote:
| Quote: |
| You have no friends that could have jumped in and helped you? |
For a second after I read this, I thought...What? Then I realised this
refered to the thread topic!
Regards,
Bart the Lover |
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Drunken Monkey
Black Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3559
Location: bar italia
Styles: white chocolate profiteroles and natas....
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:22 am Post subject: |
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anyway
i dont think i need to explain myself further.
if warp spider insists theat a person who knows he has thai origins would say he is chinese then fine. i'm not going to argue.
as for the accent thing, well, there is a lot to consider. however, i am suuming that he had a "normal" upbringing that includes education at a place where english is spoken without any thai/chinese accent (which are very, very different i should add). it's a very hard against him saying he has an accent on his english...
maybe i'm just too cynical.
maybe i should trust people more.
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on the post.
