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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2284
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what I was looking for a friendly discussion, and how often little things can pop up in our training that can be translated so differently.

Just like languages! Australian English, British English, American English. So close but so different.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2574
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite instance of alternative naming for techniques is chudan-soto-uke/chudan-uchi-uke. These are always two different techniques, but which name is applied to which technique changes from school to school and style to style, because there are two approaches to naming them:

1. Name the movement based on the direction it travels
2. Name the movement based on the part of the arm that is leading the movement

I end up always having to clarify this when I'm teaching seminars, because I call the middle level receiver that moves to the outside "chudan-soto-uke" (middle level outside receiver), but many schools would call that "chudan-uchi-uke" (middle level inside receiver) because they are used to using the inside edge of the forearm to "block" things.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1835
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I was talking to a friend who is outside of the realm of karate because I've been thinking about using my Instagram to post karate content (much like Noah, you may have heard of him he's pretty big in some forum I can't remember the name of ). They said that one of the things that they look for when they are getting in to a thing is a brief explanation of the common terms and practices of the thing. Nothing in depth, just a high-level overview so that they feel a little less lost as they begin their journey.

That got me thinking about how to tailor an experience for beginners that would make their first few classes a little less awkward. I thought about the people that I've trained with in the past and, by large, they are very accommodating. When they use a Japanese term it is usually explained immediately. No one really expects you to understand and remember everything. A good school is filled with people who are excited to do karate and excited that you are there to do it with them regardless of your level.

Anyway, it got me thinking about how intimidating the breadth of terminology can be, especially with the tendency we find to have more than one name for similar (or the same) techniques. Would you say that, in the experiences y'all have had, that you find beginners frustrated trying to remember everything. If so, what do you think we can do, as seniors in the field, to help that. Would it look like having a rank requirement where at each level the student scaffolds what they have with more information? Do we move towards leaving behind the requirement of remembering them at all? What are your thoughts?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15565
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beginners are overwhelmed one way or another, and terminology is right near the top of the list. After all, in a small way, the Student Body IS learning a new language of some sort. Having to learn that all a student must learn besides MA terminologies, can be a daunting task.

What I've no toleration for is when students outside of one's style/dojo rudely correct any said MA terminology, as if that's more important than the physical training. Seeing that I struggled to learn Spanish in high school, learning Shindokan terminologies was no walk in the park.

However, wanting to desperately communicate with Soke and Dai-Soke, who were both born and raised in Okinawa, and that they both barely spoke any English whatsoever, and that they spoke in Uchinaguchi/Japanese constantly along with their crude broken English laced in, picking up their language nuances did make learning Shidokan terminologies far simpler.

Now because Japan annexed Okinawa back somewhere in the late 1800's, Japan sought to curtail the Okinawan language by inflicting very strict assimilation policies to replace Okinawan languages with the Japanese language and prohibited the locals to speak Okinawan in public. That was the reason that Soke/Dai-Soke spoke both dialects free, however, among themselves, they spoke literally Uchinaguchi.

At my dojo students are taught Shindokan terminologies whereas they'll always hear me state in Japanese and then immediately followed in English. I don't push the terminologies out and away from either English or Japanese because I am not there to teach language 101, I'm there to teach effective Shindokan.

Although we do play games in order to help them acquire Shindokan terminologies because I do see and relate to the frustrated look on their faces; I can see that they are most assuredly, and honestly do want to learn the proper Shindokan terminologies. Yet, I do not require that they must learn the Japanese terminologies, speaking them in English is quite fine with me.



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Miick 11
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

English terms dispel the confusion.

The other week we cross trained with the aikido guys that train in the same park as we do.

One asked what a particular stance was called that they saw me use in a technique .

" Thats a reverse front back stance . "
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ashworth
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 607
Location: UK
Styles: Kankoko No Ryu, shotokan, IJR Karate, Iaido, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miick 11 wrote:
English terms dispel the confusion.

The other week we cross trained with the aikido guys that train in the same park as we do.

One asked what a particular stance was called that they saw me use in a technique .

" Thats a reverse front back stance . "


Out of interest… what is a reverse front back stance?… I wanna see if it’s the same as my reverse front back stance :p
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Miick 11
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashworth wrote:
Miick 11 wrote:
English terms dispel the confusion.

The other week we cross trained with the aikido guys that train in the same park as we do.

One asked what a particular stance was called that they saw me use in a technique .

" Thats a reverse front back stance . "


Out of interest… what is a reverse front back stance?… I wanna see if it’s the same as my reverse front back stance :p


It looks like an elongated front stance (say, on the right side ) ; right front foot forward, right arm in the position of an 'upper block ' , left arm back behind left leg in a sort of 'lower block position ' . And you are looking over your left shoulder . Thats a back front stance , or a front back stance , if you like .


What makes it a 'reverse ' is after you do that stance, in 'Nabudi na Gata ' form and you pivot on balls of feet to face the other way , swapping the arm positions so now you are in a mirror image (reverse) of the previous 'back to front stance '
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