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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30198
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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 Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| Fat Cobra wrote: |
| I am currently in an excellent organization -- the United Ryukyu Kempo Alliance. It has great pros and very few cons. My concern, though, is what happens when Kaicho retires (or passes away). There is currently no succession plan, as far as I know and it does not seem like we are prepared for what happens after Kaicho is gone. |
Any Governing Body needs to prepare for that inevitable, otherwise anarchy will set in certain areas of the Administration. Integrity doesn't only exist in ranks but in every aspect and corner of the Governing Body at all times. Like a will, certain things must be assured for the protection of the Governing Body as well as its Student Body.
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Reading Fat Cobra's post, I thought of you immediately, Bob. Hopefully, they get something in place to preserve what has been built.
I can't offer much in the way of experience with Karate organizations, but I've been a part of a few TKD organizations, and the pros and cons tend to be the same.
I agree that setting standards for technique and gradings is a big pro for many organizations. If used properly, it should be a great evaluation tool for producing quality students across the organization. However, I've seen great disparities between schools within the same organizations. Some instructors are good, and some are not, and it tends to show up in the students. I think some aren't hardline enough, and are afraid to be the "bad guy" that tells a student that they shouldn't be testing. This is something that I feel organizations should have a handle in addressing, but that kind of oversight can be difficult to logistically plan for.
Of the cons, I agree that many organizations get stuck in a rut "teaching to the curriculum," to the point where it can stifle creativity and branching out. The organization I'm currently a part of has been adding curriculum to the black belt ranks, and from what I've seen of what's been added, it has no practical use other than providing more stuff to spend time to memorize in order to test on it. This is bad, and it's curriculum for the sake of the curriculum, and doesn't help to better the students.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16446
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| Fat Cobra wrote: |
| I am currently in an excellent organization -- the United Ryukyu Kempo Alliance. It has great pros and very few cons. My concern, though, is what happens when Kaicho retires (or passes away). There is currently no succession plan, as far as I know and it does not seem like we are prepared for what happens after Kaicho is gone. |
Any Governing Body needs to prepare for that inevitable, otherwise anarchy will set in certain areas of the Administration. Integrity doesn't only exist in ranks but in every aspect and corner of the Governing Body at all times. Like a will, certain things must be assured for the protection of the Governing Body as well as its Student Body.
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Reading Fat Cobra's post, I thought of you immediately, Bob. Hopefully, they get something in place to preserve what has been built.
I can't offer much in the way of experience with Karate organizations, but I've been a part of a few TKD organizations, and the pros and cons tend to be the same.
I agree that setting standards for technique and gradings is a big pro for many organizations. If used properly, it should be a great evaluation tool for producing quality students across the organization. However, I've seen great disparities between schools within the same organizations. Some instructors are good, and some are not, and it tends to show up in the students. I think some aren't hardline enough, and are afraid to be the "bad guy" that tells a student that they shouldn't be testing. This is something that I feel organizations should have a handle in addressing, but that kind of oversight can be difficult to logistically plan for.
Of the cons, I agree that many organizations get stuck in a rut "teaching to the curriculum," to the point where it can stifle creativity and branching out. The organization I'm currently a part of has been adding curriculum to the black belt ranks, and from what I've seen of what's been added, it has no practical use other than providing more stuff to spend time to memorize in order to test on it. This is bad, and it's curriculum for the sake of the curriculum, and doesn't help to better the students. |
Be careful who the successor of the Governing Body is to become because the wrong choice is the difference between integrity and a living nightmare. When the Governing Body's Administration becomes far more important than the Student Body, it's time to jump ship.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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ryanryu
Yellow Belt
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 51
Location: Maryland, USA
Styles: Okinawan Goju-Ryu
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2024 11:24 am Post subject: |
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This one hits close to home for me as well. I was a member of an organization for a long time and worked to maintain ties with my Sensei and the org before walking away from it a few years ago.
One pro I haven’t seen mentioned is being part of the legacy or historical connection of an organization. I think many karate organizations are formed by luminaries in the karate world and serve to propagate their specific teachings and style. Being part of the organization is being part of that history and part of carrying it into the future. Heady stuff to get caught up in.
The group I was a part of fell into this category, but when the founder passed the organization really fragmented. My sensei took over as CI, but didn’t seem to have any plans, or energy, to try to reinvigorate the association. It still kills me to think of the tradition dying out… like burning the Great Library of Alexandria. (ok maybe not that dramatic)
I’ll also second the idea of organizations becoming stale in their training and thinking. Again, from my experience, the founder of the organization was a real karate pioneer who trained with several different masters and was really innovative in his approach to training. His successor was more of an archivist or curator seeking to maintain the exact forms in the exact way it was laid down. That pioneering spirit was gone.
So... I guess I would say that in the right hands and organization can be a really effective way to build and maintain a karate community/tradition, but seem to be hard to maintain over the longer term. |
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Sailor Sindbad
Yellow Belt
Joined: 05 Dec 2019
Posts: 77
Styles: Kobayashi Shorin-ryu, Shotokan, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Karate Organizations |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
From my own experiences, off the top of my head, I have this.
Pros:
Rank/instructor certification and validation as quality control
Training and educational opportunities
Propagation of consistent competition rulesets
Cons:
Political machinations and scheming
High rank trading between friends
Too controlling of curriculum or training methods
Too expensive to be a member
High testing/certification fees |
All of the cons listed are the kancho's concerns, not the students'.
The students want what they've earned to be recognized and have meaning anywhere in the world they go, not just the 1500 sq feet surrounded by four walls and a roof in the middle of Smalltown, USA.
I saw somewhere else (either in another forum or on Reddit), a guy who earned 4th Dan in an independent TSD dojang, being told he'd have to start from white belt in a WTSDA dojang.
IMO, owners of independent dojos should be required to warn prospective students of this. Otherwise, being independent and not disclosing this is pure selfishness.
_________________
History:
Kobayashi Shorin-ryu, 2019 - 2023: Rokkyu
Shotokan, 2023 - Present: Yonkyu
Judo, 2023: Novice
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, 2023 - Present: White Belt |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Karate Organizations |
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| Sailor Sindbad wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
From my own experiences, off the top of my head, I have this.
Pros:
Rank/instructor certification and validation as quality control
Training and educational opportunities
Propagation of consistent competition rulesets
Cons:
Political machinations and scheming
High rank trading between friends
Too controlling of curriculum or training methods
Too expensive to be a member
High testing/certification fees |
All of the cons listed are the kancho's concerns, not the students'.
The students want what they've earned to be recognized and have meaning anywhere in the world they go, not just the 1500 sq feet surrounded by four walls and a roof in the middle of Smalltown, USA.
I saw somewhere else (either in another forum or on Reddit), a guy who earned 4th Dan in an independent TSD dojang, being told he'd have to start from white belt in a WTSDA dojang.
IMO, owners of independent dojos should be required to warn prospective students of this. Otherwise, being independent and not disclosing this is pure selfishness. |
I don't entirely agree. The cons are the kancho's concerns in the sense that they are responsible for how the organization is run, but they are absolutely concerns for the students the moment they begin to affect the students--the only difference is that the students have no power to correct it, and simply have to suffer with whatever the kancho decides. For example, the political machinations and scheming can result in, as happened to me, being denied a rank exam simply for wanting your school to be independent while you personally remain in the organization. Friends trading ranks can result in the students of those people being harassed about their instructors being frauds. Locking down an exact curriculum stifles creativity and the evolution of the art, which impacts everyone training in it. High costs can result in students dropping out and putting both the organization and its individual schools at risk of shutting down, and then we could lose a great deal of knowledge.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| ryanryu wrote: |
This one hits close to home for me as well. I was a member of an organization for a long time and worked to maintain ties with my Sensei and the org before walking away from it a few years ago.
One pro I haven’t seen mentioned is being part of the legacy or historical connection of an organization. I think many karate organizations are formed by luminaries in the karate world and serve to propagate their specific teachings and style. Being part of the organization is being part of that history and part of carrying it into the future. Heady stuff to get caught up in.
The group I was a part of fell into this category, but when the founder passed the organization really fragmented. My sensei took over as CI, but didn’t seem to have any plans, or energy, to try to reinvigorate the association. It still kills me to think of the tradition dying out… like burning the Great Library of Alexandria. (ok maybe not that dramatic)
I’ll also second the idea of organizations becoming stale in their training and thinking. Again, from my experience, the founder of the organization was a real karate pioneer who trained with several different masters and was really innovative in his approach to training. His successor was more of an archivist or curator seeking to maintain the exact forms in the exact way it was laid down. That pioneering spirit was gone.
So... I guess I would say that in the right hands and organization can be a really effective way to build and maintain a karate community/tradition, but seem to be hard to maintain over the longer term. |
I've definitely found that organizations die out, more often than not, when their founder dies, and those that don't almost always take a preservationist approach that can completely kill a style. It always reminds me of the famous Japanese poet, Basho Matsuo, and his quote, "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought." Far too many people are interested in following the footsteps, and far too few are interested in seeking what their predecessors sought. It's easy to copy and preserve an art--that's the Shu phase of Shu-Ha-Ri--but it's far harder to push for its continued development and evolution. Being part of an historical legacy is nice, but in my opinion, you're part of that legacy whether there is an organization or not, because that's what your lineage is. I know that's not how a lot of people see it, though. It's easy to take the "no organization, no legitimacy," approach, unfortunately.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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Sailor Sindbad
Yellow Belt
Joined: 05 Dec 2019
Posts: 77
Styles: Kobayashi Shorin-ryu, Shotokan, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Karate Organizations |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| I don't entirely agree. The cons are the kancho's concerns in the sense that they are responsible for how the organization is run, but they are absolutely concerns for the students the moment they begin to affect the students--the only difference is that the students have no power to correct it, and simply have to suffer with whatever the kancho decides. For example, the political machinations and scheming can result in, as happened to me, being denied a rank exam simply for wanting your school to be independent while you personally remain in the organization. |
That's your concern, not your students. But does the fact that you're seeking rank from a particular organization while your students are being denied the ability to do the same not bother you at all?
| Quote: |
| Friends trading ranks can result in the students of those people being harassed about their instructors being frauds. |
Doesn't seem as bad as the self-promotions that are more likely in independant dojo owners.
| Quote: |
| Locking down an exact curriculum stifles creativity and the evolution of the art, which impacts everyone training in it. |
We're talking about "traditional martial arts." There are non-traditional martial arts that are designed to evolve, that are focused on "the streets," that train in the uses of knives, firearms, extendable batons, etc in addition to hand-to-hand.
As long as students know that that's what they're getting, versus "traditional" Japanese/Okinawan/Korean martial arts - hey, no problem.
But if they're in a dojo that calls itself as "Goju-ryu" and they're allowed to carry on believing that their dan certificate will hold the same weight as one issued by IOGKF, then it becomes a problem.
| Quote: |
| High costs can result in students dropping out and putting both the organization and its individual schools at risk of shutting down, and then we could lose a great deal of knowledge. |
People in general are aware that you get what you pay for. The shodan exam at my ISKF dojo is $80. I'd gladly pay that, and still be a shodan at any ISKF, SKIF, ITKF, or most other Shotokan dojos worldwide, than pay $20 at an independent Shotokan dojo and not have that.
_________________
History:
Kobayashi Shorin-ryu, 2019 - 2023: Rokkyu
Shotokan, 2023 - Present: Yonkyu
Judo, 2023: Novice
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, 2023 - Present: White Belt |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30198
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| I've definitely found that organizations die out, more often than not, when their founder dies, and those that don't almost always take a preservationist approach that can completely kill a style. It always reminds me of the famous Japanese poet, Basho Matsuo, and his quote, "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought." Far too many people are interested in following the footsteps, and far too few are interested in seeking what their predecessors sought. It's easy to copy and preserve an art--that's the Shu phase of Shu-Ha-Ri--but it's far harder to push for its continued development and evolution. Being part of an historical legacy is nice, but in my opinion, you're part of that legacy whether there is an organization or not, because that's what your lineage is. I know that's not how a lot of people see it, though. It's easy to take the "no organization, no legitimacy," approach, unfortunately. |
This is a great point. Many times, what students learn from a master has to do with what time in that master's life they learned it from them. A young, spry master will move and respond to things much differently than an elderly master. As much as we'd all like to think we do things the same now as we did when we were 20 years younger, the fact of the matter is that we have likely made some adjustments as we've gone along. It's the natural evolution of things. I think this carries over into how a master teaches things, as well.
I believe our Martial Arts are supposed to evolve along with us, and different students of ours will reflect the different aspects we've presented throughout our journey.
| Sailor Sinbad wrote: |
| People in general are aware that you get what you pay for. The shodan exam at my ISKF dojo is $80. I'd gladly pay that, and still be a shodan at any ISKF, SKIF, ITKF, or most other Shotokan dojos worldwide, than pay $20 at an independent Shotokan dojo and not have that. |
I've been through this. I've attained black belt certificates in two different TKD organizations. Two different curriculums. However, it didn't change the fact that I was already a black belt. They can choose not to recognize it, but they can't take it away from me.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16446
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:12 am Post subject: |
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The SKKA, the Governing Body that I was with forever and a day, died out not because our founder died, but because its new leadership many years after our founder died, brought back as its Kaicho even though he'd been banned for life for cause, of which the Student Body, as well as many CI's, terminated their networked memberships immediately.
Bad apple ruined the whole bunch.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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DarthPenguin
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 899
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Karate Organizations |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| Sailor Sindbad wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
From my own experiences, off the top of my head, I have this.
Pros:
Rank/instructor certification and validation as quality control
Training and educational opportunities
Propagation of consistent competition rulesets
Cons:
Political machinations and scheming
High rank trading between friends
Too controlling of curriculum or training methods
Too expensive to be a member
High testing/certification fees |
All of the cons listed are the kancho's concerns, not the students'.
The students want what they've earned to be recognized and have meaning anywhere in the world they go, not just the 1500 sq feet surrounded by four walls and a roof in the middle of Smalltown, USA.
I saw somewhere else (either in another forum or on Reddit), a guy who earned 4th Dan in an independent TSD dojang, being told he'd have to start from white belt in a WTSDA dojang.
IMO, owners of independent dojos should be required to warn prospective students of this. Otherwise, being independent and not disclosing this is pure selfishness. |
I don't entirely agree. The cons are the kancho's concerns in the sense that they are responsible for how the organization is run, but they are absolutely concerns for the students the moment they begin to affect the students--the only difference is that the students have no power to correct it, and simply have to suffer with whatever the kancho decides. For example, the political machinations and scheming can result in, as happened to me, being denied a rank exam simply for wanting your school to be independent while you personally remain in the organization. Friends trading ranks can result in the students of those people being harassed about their instructors being frauds. Locking down an exact curriculum stifles creativity and the evolution of the art, which impacts everyone training in it. High costs can result in students dropping out and putting both the organization and its individual schools at risk of shutting down, and then we could lose a great deal of knowledge. |
I agree with Wastelander here, and have personally been on the receiving end of silly organisational politics too. In my case it was my decision to start cross training in bjj (which i told my CI about directly) as the organisational head didn't like cross training even if something he didn't cover. I was privately told that he was going to wait for me to attend my next dan grading and ban me there (though was still going to let me pay the £150+ for the grading!) to make a point.
Regarding the selfishness point i don't see how this stacks up. If i tell you that i will teach you Style A and am not a member of any other body, but present my validated credentials, then i am not being underhanded about anything. I can have no effect on if other organisations will or will not accept the grades i issue nor on if they will sensibly test the student if they look to move organisations to accurately place them in the new organisation rank structure.
From the new org. point of view and considering your 4th dan example: the applicant could be amazingly skilled and have been undergraded by their old school and you may want to give them a high rank to reflect this (Sato Ishii starting bjj as a brown belt comes to mind, since you can hardly grade an olympic gold medallist judoka as a white belt!) or alternatively their old school could have been a total mcdojo and their 4th dan is no better than a 5th or 6th kyu in the receiving organisation. Note i am not saying the individual you referenced was not mistreated but it is possible that there is more nuance than disclosed. |
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on the post.
