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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| I'm not sure it was changed due to money. It would have been done first by Itosu, if I remember correctly, and then by Funakoshi. I'm not sure either one of these individuals made a lot of money from their training. |
I concur!!
So, you're saying that the change(s) were made before money seeped its way into the fray?!?
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I think the changes were made when the instructors began introducing the arts into schools. |
Schools, like public schools for K-12?!?
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900
Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I don't think kata is only a vessel for gaining belts, but you can't deny the correlation between the rank you are, and the kata you learn. I'm not saying it is right, wrong, or indifferent, but that the correlation does exist in many styles.
Now, with that said, you mention all the applications that come out of the kata you learn. Which I think is a great thing. But, my train of thought here is that the time taken out for first learning the kata is time that could be applied towards learning the applications or the concepts behind them, drilling with a live partner, thus increasing the learning curve in acquiring self-defense skills. |
Again, too much time is spent in the typical class on "learning" the kata. I can teach you to walk through Kanku Dai, considered a very advanced kata in many styles, in an hour or two. Then 10-15 minutes to tweak it to get improvements as long as you are spending time on your own practicing and get massive improvements in a month or so. Alternately, I can get you walking through a short section in 5-10 minutes and then spend the next 2 hours teaching the application with a partner. And then add another section the next time in the same fashion. And in a couple of months you have the full kata and hours and hours of partner drill under your belt and with them solid fighting/self defense techniques.
It's the teaching format that is wrong, in my opinion, not the kata. The change in teaching format had a lot to do with this I think, and you hinted at it as well. Once karate was taken into schools (and I mean middle/high and university), in my opinion, you had to change the teaching format. Larger classes demand a different teaching format and style than small groups. When you make that shift you can't spend the time to break kata into small chunks and teach the applications. It's teach line basics and kata predominantly. And you keep the emphasis on the appearance, the look, of what's being done instead of the bones of it and functionality. Lots of time on kata in the class because you can teach and observe it to a larger group than watching lots of pairs work application. A couple of generations of that teaching format and you have a karate culture that is divorced from it's roots as a hands on, practical self defense system. It had then become one that produces students who are judged on how it looks, not how it works, are concerned with preserving the appearance of kata and not it's content.
But again bushido_man, I'm the guy I've voted most likely to be kicked out of traditional karate for my beliefs and practices in pursuit of traditional karate. Heck, I shocked our handful of students last night by telling them that if it were up to me we would do 4, maybe 5 kata total. Not just to black belt, but total.
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Kisshu fushin, Oni te hotoke kokoro. A demon's hand, a saint's heart. -- Osensei Shoshin Nagamine |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| ShoriKid wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I don't think kata is only a vessel for gaining belts, but you can't deny the correlation between the rank you are, and the kata you learn. I'm not saying it is right, wrong, or indifferent, but that the correlation does exist in many styles.
Now, with that said, you mention all the applications that come out of the kata you learn. Which I think is a great thing. But, my train of thought here is that the time taken out for first learning the kata is time that could be applied towards learning the applications or the concepts behind them, drilling with a live partner, thus increasing the learning curve in acquiring self-defense skills. |
Again, too much time is spent in the typical class on "learning" the kata. I can teach you to walk through Kanku Dai, considered a very advanced kata in many styles, in an hour or two. Then 10-15 minutes to tweak it to get improvements as long as you are spending time on your own practicing and get massive improvements in a month or so. Alternately, I can get you walking through a short section in 5-10 minutes and then spend the next 2 hours teaching the application with a partner. And then add another section the next time in the same fashion. And in a couple of months you have the full kata and hours and hours of partner drill under your belt and with them solid fighting/self defense techniques.
It's the teaching format that is wrong, in my opinion, not the kata. The change in teaching format had a lot to do with this I think, and you hinted at it as well. Once karate was taken into schools (and I mean middle/high and university), in my opinion, you had to change the teaching format. Larger classes demand a different teaching format and style than small groups. When you make that shift you can't spend the time to break kata into small chunks and teach the applications. It's teach line basics and kata predominantly. And you keep the emphasis on the appearance, the look, of what's being done instead of the bones of it and functionality. Lots of time on kata in the class because you can teach and observe it to a larger group than watching lots of pairs work application. A couple of generations of that teaching format and you have a karate culture that is divorced from it's roots as a hands on, practical self defense system. It had then become one that produces students who are judged on how it looks, not how it works, are concerned with preserving the appearance of kata and not it's content.
But again bushido_man, I'm the guy I've voted most likely to be kicked out of traditional karate for my beliefs and practices in pursuit of traditional karate. Heck, I shocked our handful of students last night by telling them that if it were up to me we would do 4, maybe 5 kata total. Not just to black belt, but total. |
Very solid post!!
"It's the teaching format that is wrong, in my opinion, not the kata." That statement of yours hits the nail right on the head, imho.
And your statement here, supports your first statement, imho..."It had then become one that produces students who are judged on how it looks, not how it works, are concerned with preserving the appearance of kata and not it's content."
This is one of the reasons that I've not embraced a rotating curriculum. Not that teaching in a public school and a university is a bad thing, but a rotating curriculum seems to work well in that environment.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Safroot
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 911
Location: Sydney, Australia
Styles: Kyokushin
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
The three K's...again!! Without either of them, it's not karate!!
Kata training needs to be alive. Take the segments, and drill them live over and over again. Seek for the weaknesses that are in the Kata segments. Don't allow anything within the Kata work, unless it does work. This of course will change as one gains effective applied knowledge: what worked last time, now doesn't because I'm not a dolt; I got smarter over time. NOW FIX THAT! This will repeat until you die; it's never ending!!
Kate ISN'T a memorized dance! Stop treating and training kata as though it is, and nothing more.
Bruce's analysis of Kata is right and wrong, at the same time. Bruce was right when he said that kata is like swimming on dry land, but only at first, and that's because each new kata is unfamiliar ground.
Bruce was wrong in his thought when kata is trained live, and with a purpose. Kata then no longer is that ineffectiveness because Bunkai/Oyo is so far away from the core of kata, and that said kata is brought alive when we battle the segments. Allowing nothing!!
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solid post
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"The Martial Arts begin with a point and end in a circle."
Sosai Mas Oyama founder of Kyokushin Karate. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| ShoriKid wrote: |
| Again, too much time is spent in the typical class on "learning" the kata. I can teach you to walk through Kanku Dai, considered a very advanced kata in many styles, in an hour or two. Then 10-15 minutes to tweak it to get improvements as long as you are spending time on your own practicing and get massive improvements in a month or so. |
I agree here, as well. Last night, after spending about 10 minutes of going over my new form, I just about have it down. That's a 4th dan form, supposedly a high-rank form, that I almost have memorized in two sessions I've spent learning it. On a similar note, I remember reading about GM H.U. Lee from the ATA talking about how he learned the first 16 Chang On patterns in four days and three nights time (which ones he learned would be up for debate, but a bit of digging could probably produce which ones he learned at that time, 1968). So, I tend to agree with you that learning forms is not really an issue.
| ShoriKid wrote: |
| Alternately, I can get you walking through a short section in 5-10 minutes and then spend the next 2 hours teaching the application with a partner. And then add another section the next time in the same fashion. And in a couple of months you have the full kata and hours and hours of partner drill under your belt and with them solid fighting/self defense techniques. |
This is exactly my point with the partner-based concepts training, and probably was how kata training was orginally done. Great points!
| ShoriKid wrote: |
| It's the teaching format that is wrong, in my opinion, not the kata. The change in teaching format had a lot to do with this I think, and you hinted at it as well. Once karate was taken into schools (and I mean middle/high and university), in my opinion, you had to change the teaching format. Larger classes demand a different teaching format and style than small groups. When you make that shift you can't spend the time to break kata into small chunks and teach the applications. It's teach line basics and kata predominantly. |
I do think when you get so many students into a class, then it probably did change the approach to teaching. And it is easy to observe a large group do basic technique at an instructor's count, roaming around fixing this and adjusting that.
| ShoriKid wrote: |
| And you keep the emphasis on the appearance, the look, of what's being done instead of the bones of it and functionality. Lots of time on kata in the class because you can teach and observe it to a larger group than watching lots of pairs work application. A couple of generations of that teaching format and you have a karate culture that is divorced from it's roots as a hands on, practical self defense system. It had then become one that produces students who are judged on how it looks, not how it works, are concerned with preserving the appearance of kata and not it's content. |
To the bold above, I think that has a lot to do with it. Technical proficiency gets tied a lot into the proper technique, how a side kick should look, the withdrawing hand turned all the way over, front stance with front knee bent, back leg locked, with everything looking "right." After all, these are the things sought in tournament formats, and probably even in a lot of testings. In my time in TKD, this has always been a predominant aspect of the training, getting the technique to what we considered "correct," and then improving it. There is an advantage to this, to be sure, but I don't think it should take precedence at the expense of viable self-defense and partner training.
| ShoriKid wrote: |
| But again bushido_man, I'm the guy I've voted most likely to be kicked out of traditional karate for my beliefs and practices in pursuit of traditional karate. Heck, I shocked our handful of students last night by telling them that if it were up to me we would do 4, maybe 5 kata total. Not just to black belt, but total. |
Nothing wrong with that at all. I don't think I would be opposed to doing only a handful of forms, if the proper self-defense applications were presented along with the training. If I recall, Funakoshi spent 7 years on one form (I think it was Naihanchi/Naifanchi/Tekki?).
| sensei8 wrote: |
| Schools, like public schools for K-12?!? |
If I recall, didn't Itosu introduce Karate to Okinawan middle schools, and wasn't he the one who broke up the kata that is now the first 4 katas of Shotokan? And Funakoshi followed suit in introducing Karate to the public schools of Japan.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Learning the steps of practically any kata/form doesn't take to long to learn. What takes so long, is the fine-tuning that takes some time. Even then, it might takes years to understand said kata/form, and this doesn't include all of the Bunkai/Oyo.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Learning the steps of practically any kata/form doesn't take to long to learn. What takes so long, is the fine-tuning that takes some time. Even then, it might takes years to understand said kata/form, and this doesn't include all of the Bunkai/Oyo.
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We may have discussed this, Bob, but I have forgotten if we did...
What form do you teach at white belt? And is there a set amount of time you wait, to let them learn the moves of the form, before you start teaching bunkai?
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Learning the steps of practically any kata/form doesn't take to long to learn. What takes so long, is the fine-tuning that takes some time. Even then, it might takes years to understand said kata/form, and this doesn't include all of the Bunkai/Oyo.
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We may have discussed this, Bob, but I have forgotten if we did...
What form do you teach at white belt? And is there a set amount of time you wait, to let them learn the moves of the form, before you start teaching bunkai? |
Great question.
Taikyoku Shodan
Pinan Shodan
Normally, I will wait about 1 month before I introduce white belts to the Bunkai of either. In that first month, I'll fine tune them in their stances, turns, posture, hips, transitions, rhythm, proper execution, breathing, and kiai.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Now, a question is this...how much fine tuning is needed before you could start doing application work with a partner? I think its something that could start right away, and could even improve the learning curve of fine tuning the katas.
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900
Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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This is from a phone, so apologies in advance. How much time before you start to teach application? Second night? The first night you demo a few.applications to keep their mind open to accepting that kata are something other than a dance. Lay a light foundation for the kata and then start applying it. That way they don't get fixated on the dance.
Thought a few throws and take downs that centered on heian/pin an/basai/passai applications last night. To quote our 1st kyu, "Kata, so full of suck." In reference to how harsh the application s we went through were. I keep telling them, Okinawains were very nice people, until they weren't.
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Kisshu fushin, Oni te hotoke kokoro. A demon's hand, a saint's heart. -- Osensei Shoshin Nagamine |
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on the post.
