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cathal
Black Belt
Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 2237
Location: Atlantic Canada
Styles: Shotokan (Ryukyu Kobujutsu, Iaido)
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 Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: Neck Break...wait, what? |
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Hey there,
So I was poking around the net and found a self defence video (I'll try to find it...can't seem to remember the URL) where the instructor was demonstrating how to get out of a rear bear hug. After breaking free, she used a finger lock to get her demo down onto his knees. Then she demonstrated how to break his neck.
Not only was I horrified but I was desperately trying to figure out why someone would teach this without speaking to the legal ramifications, but she spoke about breaking the neck as casually as she did the finger lock. When you learned, or if you teach, do you talk about your local and national laws regarding self defence?
Thanks 
_________________
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The best victory is when the opponent surrenders
of its own accord before there are any actual
hostilities...It is best to win without fighting.
- Sun-tzu |
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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I tend to see that type of technique as 'probably ineffective'. It is a structural attack on one of the most resilient and reinforced pieces of anatomy on the human body, and not something that gets tested very often.
I try to push a loop that at every second step asks 'Can I run away now?' so that students won't cross the line into assault; I also treat techniques as ways to move an attacker or degrade their ability to persue, rather than 'how much can I hurt them?' If it comes down to it, I want them to be able to say something like "I hit him that hard so I could get him out of the way to RUN OUT THE DOOR" rather than try to justify some Mortal Kombat style special finishing move in a court to a peeved hotshot lawyer brother-in-law of the attacker.
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"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| When you learned, or if you teach, do you talk about your local and national laws regarding self defence? |
Everyday...all day...all of the time! To do otherwise, would be irresponsible of me. Now, what the student decides to do after I've supplied the necessary info, well, then that's up to them. For me, I will do whatever is necessary to protect my family, my loved ones, and myself. After that, I just hope the judge will see it my way.
My style, Shindokan, doesn't cover the Neck Break technique...boy...I feel cheated!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Justice on this one. The neck break, while theoretically possible from some angles and twists, is more than likely less than effective. It'd be pretty hard to pull of in the mess of an altercation. Impossible, probably not, but there are better ways to kill people.
To the legal ramifications, yes, you'd better be discussing use of force. It important to keeping you and your people out of trouble.
That being said, you should also be training highly damaging tactics and possibly life threatening ones in the same manner as the rest. It's a response to a threat, that's all. Anything else will set one up for mental failure when it comes time to apply the movement. |
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The BB of C
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 1264
Location: Orlando, Florida
Styles: Kuk Sool Won, Isshin-ryu, Capoeira, Brazillian Jiu Jutsu, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I always believed breaking a neck is excessive. But I don't care too much about legal ramifications about defending myself. I try to train my instincts to stay attacking until I see the enemy stop moving entirely because if I just use a Dis-abler take-down and run away, or create space and flee, then I'm giving him an opportunity to draw a weapon. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: |
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To discuss a move like a neck break without discussing the legal ramifications of using such a technique is not a good idea, in my opinion. If one is to even consider jumping to a technique like that, the other person better have a weapon or something in hand.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| To discuss a move like a neck break without discussing the legal ramifications of using such a technique is not a good idea, in my opinion. If one is to even consider jumping to a technique like that, the other person better have a weapon or something in hand. |
More than likely, if a martial artist breaks someones neck, a judge would throw the martial artist under the jail for quite awhile. Why? Because there are so many other non-fatal techniques availible to a martial artist. The I don't hit, but, it hits all by itself excuse won't impress any judge in any court of law. We, martial artists are suppose to be in control, but, breaking a neck is being way out of control, imho.
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**Proof is on the floor!!!
Last edited by sensei8 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
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cathal
Black Belt
Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 2237
Location: Atlantic Canada
Styles: Shotokan (Ryukyu Kobujutsu, Iaido)
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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She's seen one to many movies! Yes, she warns against this move, unless it's life/death, but, wow, legal issue are ignored.
Again, I don't see this as an effective solution/technique because the attacker is so compliant in the demo. How do we know the blow on the back of the hand will even work for every attacker? How do we know that the finger manipulation will even work for every attacker? How do we know if the attacker will react at each movement? How do we know that the attacker is going to stay down and/or stay in place long enough for 'me' to apply/execute the open the neck/neck break?
In this next paragraph, remember, I'm playing the attacker.
Smack me on the back of my hand, if I'm the attacker, it's on like donkey kong, or I'm laughing at you. Twist my fingers, if I'm the attacker, and 'your' grip isn't firm, it's on like donkey kong, or I'm still laughing at you. Let go of my hand, if I'm the attacker, then I'm getting up while creating distance while I go to plan 'B' or something, as I'm still laughing at you. Twist my neck, if I'm the attacker, and the only thing you do is adjust my neck like a chiropractor, then, I'm going to thank you, and then it's on like donkey kong, or I'm going to be rolling on the floor laughing at you. Now, use sensible and effective techniques, then, I, as the attacker, am not going to be laughing, no, I'm going to be hurting.
Thanks for the video cathal!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, less then impressive in my opinion as well. The joints not immobilized and the attacker is free to move and adjust. Don't see it happening from here.
On a different point, I don't think that just because you use something along the line of this that might actually work it means that you're out of control or going to jail. It just means that deadly force was called for and that you applied it. If those two hold true, it's going to be hard for you to do jail time. |
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on the post.
