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GS718Trek
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:57 am    Post subject: New ideas for sport Karate Reply with quote

Can anyone think of a new way of Karate competition that does away with the point "tag" system?

There are full-contact sports, I know, but are there any other developments that people have fantasized about and share? maybe something the incorporates all aspects of Karate as whole (kihon,kata,kumite)
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Zaine
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are competitions that do continuous fighting. It's still based on points, but there isn't any stopping. Then, of course, you have Kyokushin tournaments.

I don't think that Karate as a whole will ever get away from the point fighting system. If the idea of Karate as self-defense is to throw a technique or two and then walk away from an opponent who is incapacitated, then the idea of points fighting is a pretty good one. The issue we run into, then, is that from a sports standpoint, this system of sparring promotes making contact with the opponent instead of throwing a technique that is going to have stopping power. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with this from a safety standpoint, but I do wish that judges would score people based on a little heavier on whether the technique was thrown with power and intent than whether it made contact.

However, all this said, I think KarateCombat is the answer you're looking for here. A full contact, Karate specific, sport that has the continuous fighting that you're looking for without losing the karate aspects of fighting. I would love to see more KarateCombat style smaller competitions.
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Wastelander
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: New ideas for sport Karate Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
Can anyone think of a new way of Karate competition that does away with the point "tag" system?

There are full-contact sports, I know, but are there any other developments that people have fantasized about and share? maybe something the incorporates all aspects of Karate as whole (kihon,kata,kumite)


Competitive kakedameshi (you can read a bit more about it here: https://www.karateforums.com/kakedameshi-and-why-karateka-should-do-it-vt52563.html) would be my preference, for sure, but it's not easy to score. I've been playing with ways to do that for several years, now, but I don't exactly have a large testing pool, either. The two main ideas I've tended to come back to are either a Judo-like scoring system, or a full-contact format with supplemental scoring system.

Judo-Like Scoring: For those who are unfamiliar, and trying to look up Judo scoring, I recommend you look up the rules as they were pre-2008, as those are what I'm used to, and that's my frame of reference for this. In general, though, you would set criteria for what is an automatic victory (ippon), what you would have to successfully pull off two of to get an automatic victory (waza-ari), what would be counted as effective techniques that were not good enough for the higher scores (yuko), and what would basically just be a tie breaker (koka). If you wanted, you could also just break that down into whatever arbitrary point denominations you like--5 points, 3 points, 1 point, and an advantage marker, for example. Resetting fighters to their starting positions would only be done if a stalemate is reached for too long. This has flexibility in the level of contact you allow for the strikes, and which locks or takedowns you want to allow, so it could be toned down for those who want something safer, or ramped up for those who want more of a challenge. The trouble with this is that it requires referees/judges who are skilled enough to quickly identify and score the techniques being used, which isn't something as easy to onboard people for as, say, WKF's point-sparring criteria--I got qualified for that in an afternoon, without any real interest in it, but I can't say that would work for kakedameshi.

Full-Contact with Supplemental Scoring: This is basically just MMA that has a restricted range, and emphasis on a particular approach to fighting. You can win by KO, TKO, or submission, and if neither competitor achieves those, then the match goes to judges who scored the match, which could be done with something as involved as the Judo-like scoring I described, above, or something much simpler, with criteria like "Landed more significant strikes" and "More successful takedowns" with point values assigned. This would allow for much easier refereeing/judging, but you are going to have a lot fewer people interested in doing it, because it hurts and carries more risk than a lighter contact approach.[/list]
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GS718Trek
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There are competitions that do continuous fighting. It's still based on points, but there isn't any stopping. Then, of course, you have Kyokushin tournaments.

I don't think that Karate as a whole will ever get away from the point fighting system. If the idea of Karate as self-defense is to throw a technique or two and then walk away from an opponent who is incapacitated, then the idea of points fighting is a pretty good one. The issue we run into, then, is that from a sports standpoint, this system of sparring promotes making contact with the opponent instead of throwing a technique that is going to have stopping power. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with this from a safety standpoint, but I do wish that judges would score people based on a little heavier on whether the technique was thrown with power and intent than whether it made contact.

However, all this said, I think KarateCombat is the answer you're looking for here. A full contact, Karate specific, sport that has the continuous fighting that you're looking for without losing the karate aspects of fighting. I would love to see more KarateCombat style smaller competitions.
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That is a wise observation

It's unfortunate that on some YouTube videos of KC, people may comment that it resembles MMA or kickboxing with belts on.

I can also think of anything that would demonstrate swift use of precise bunkai skills.
Given that there are already sports that involve full-contact grappling and striking, the sky should be the limit.
What I'm trying to imply is that watching Heian or Pinan Bunkai performed on a world stage such as WKF with different rules would prompt people to exclaim, "That right there is KARATE."


Last edited by GS718Trek on Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GS718Trek
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Competitive kakedameshi (you can read a bit more about it here: https://www.karateforums.com/kakedameshi-and-why-karateka-should-do-it-vt52563.html) would be my preference, for sure, but it's not easy to score. I've been playing with ways to do that for several years, now, but I don't exactly have a large testing pool, either. The two main ideas I've tended to come back to are either a Judo-like scoring system, or a full-contact format with supplemental scoring system.

Judo-Like Scoring: For those who are unfamiliar, and trying to look up Judo scoring, I recommend you look up the rules as they were pre-2008, as those are what I'm used to, and that's my frame of reference for this. In general, though, you would set criteria for what is an automatic victory (ippon), what you would have to successfully pull off two of to get an automatic victory (waza-ari), what would be counted as effective techniques that were not good enough for the higher scores (yuko), and what would basically just be a tie breaker (koka). If you wanted, you could also just break that down into whatever arbitrary point denominations you like--5 points, 3 points, 1 point, and an advantage marker, for example. Resetting fighters to their starting positions would only be done if a stalemate is reached for too long. This has flexibility in the level of contact you allow for the strikes, and which locks or takedowns you want to allow, so it could be toned down for those who want something safer, or ramped up for those who want more of a challenge. The trouble with this is that it requires referees/judges who are skilled enough to quickly identify and score the techniques being used, which isn't something as easy to onboard people for as, say, WKF's point-sparring criteria--I got qualified for that in an afternoon, without any real interest in it, but I can't say that would work for kakedameshi.

Full-Contact with Supplemental Scoring: This is basically just MMA that has a restricted range, and emphasis on a particular approach to fighting. You can win by KO, TKO, or submission, and if neither competitor achieves those, then the match goes to judges who scored the match, which could be done with something as involved as the Judo-like scoring I described, above, or something much simpler, with criteria like "Landed more significant strikes" and "More successful takedowns" with point values assigned. This would allow for much easier refereeing/judging, but you are going to have a lot fewer people interested in doing it, because it hurts and carries more risk than a lighter contact approach.[/list]





What a fantastic idea!


The videos you showed of it being drilled in a typical class session further piqued my interest. When I used to train shorin Ryu, I wish we had done that more frequently. At the belt level I was at, I was taught the bunkai for my katas, but we didn't consistently drill them in flow sessions as you did in those videos you provided. We went on to the next activity after performing the standard compliance drill with a partner.

I can imagine the concepts in those videos being done by the best fighters on world stages like KC, WKF, Kyokushin, etc.
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Zaine
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
What I'm trying to imply is that watching Heian or Pinan Bunkai performed on a world stage such as WKF with different rules would prompt people to exclaim, "That right there is KARATE."


The issue you run into with this is that bunkai serves a very different purpose than a bout does. We can mold our understanding of a bout via kata and bunkai. We can shape our fighting styles around bunkai (I certainly do). However, to actually employ bunkai in a fight is a tall order. On one end of the spectrum, if we take the opening of Pinan 1/Heian 2, a lot of schools interpret this as a break. On the other end, the speed of a bout has a different cadence from self-defense. I don't necessarily want my other hand above my head. We can change these to be more suited for a bout, but at the end of the day I'm not sure that we would want to.
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DarthPenguin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is likely a stupid idea! But would it be possible to wear chestguards with a sensor in them and maybe small sensors in gloves/footpads that register when a hit is landed with sufficient force?

I'm envisaging something like the fencing system. Not quite sure how best to work it for the face though (other than a helmet).

That would then allow the (i think excellent) judo style scoring system that Wastelander mentioned above to be implemented. The system could judge is it is an 'ippon worthy' strike, 'waza-ari' etc and go from there.

Would remove a lot of the tag aspect while still preserving the single strike ending the contest aspect
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Wastelander
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
Quote:

Competitive kakedameshi (you can read a bit more about it here: https://www.karateforums.com/kakedameshi-and-why-karateka-should-do-it-vt52563.html) would be my preference, for sure, but it's not easy to score. I've been playing with ways to do that for several years, now, but I don't exactly have a large testing pool, either. The two main ideas I've tended to come back to are either a Judo-like scoring system, or a full-contact format with supplemental scoring system.

Judo-Like Scoring: For those who are unfamiliar, and trying to look up Judo scoring, I recommend you look up the rules as they were pre-2008, as those are what I'm used to, and that's my frame of reference for this. In general, though, you would set criteria for what is an automatic victory (ippon), what you would have to successfully pull off two of to get an automatic victory (waza-ari), what would be counted as effective techniques that were not good enough for the higher scores (yuko), and what would basically just be a tie breaker (koka). If you wanted, you could also just break that down into whatever arbitrary point denominations you like--5 points, 3 points, 1 point, and an advantage marker, for example. Resetting fighters to their starting positions would only be done if a stalemate is reached for too long. This has flexibility in the level of contact you allow for the strikes, and which locks or takedowns you want to allow, so it could be toned down for those who want something safer, or ramped up for those who want more of a challenge. The trouble with this is that it requires referees/judges who are skilled enough to quickly identify and score the techniques being used, which isn't something as easy to onboard people for as, say, WKF's point-sparring criteria--I got qualified for that in an afternoon, without any real interest in it, but I can't say that would work for kakedameshi.

Full-Contact with Supplemental Scoring: This is basically just MMA that has a restricted range, and emphasis on a particular approach to fighting. You can win by KO, TKO, or submission, and if neither competitor achieves those, then the match goes to judges who scored the match, which could be done with something as involved as the Judo-like scoring I described, above, or something much simpler, with criteria like "Landed more significant strikes" and "More successful takedowns" with point values assigned. This would allow for much easier refereeing/judging, but you are going to have a lot fewer people interested in doing it, because it hurts and carries more risk than a lighter contact approach.[/list]


What a fantastic idea!

The videos you showed of it being drilled in a typical class session further piqued my interest. When I used to train shorin Ryu, I wish we had done that more frequently. At the belt level I was at, I was taught the bunkai for my katas, but we didn't consistently drill them in flow sessions as you did in those videos you provided. We went on to the next activity after performing the standard compliance drill with a partner.

I can imagine the concepts in those videos being done by the best fighters on world stages like KC, WKF, Kyokushin, etc.


Thanks! It was just one of the sparring methods that we used to develop the skills to actually apply the applications we worked from kata, but I find that it's the best option for a continuous, symmetrical sparring method that forces you to use skills from kata, so it's the best option for competition, IMO.

DarthPenguin wrote:
This is likely a stupid idea! But would it be possible to wear chestguards with a sensor in them and maybe small sensors in gloves/footpads that register when a hit is landed with sufficient force?

I'm envisaging something like the fencing system. Not quite sure how best to work it for the face though (other than a helmet).

That would then allow the (i think excellent) judo style scoring system that Wastelander mentioned above to be implemented. The system could judge is it is an 'ippon worthy' strike, 'waza-ari' etc and go from there.

Would remove a lot of the tag aspect while still preserving the single strike ending the contest aspect


IIRC, Taekwondo actually adopted this back in 2008 for the Olympics. It's been highly controversial, from what I understand, and it's implementation has changed the way competitors fight, but not necessarily for the better. I can't say I would be inherently against it, but it would take some definite research and beta testing.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I still remember Karate Chess or was it Chess Karate. Anyhow, I obviously don't have one shred of imagination and/or creativity whatsoever to be able to come up with an effective way of competition that eliminates any current scoring platform.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the only point that can be awarded without any ambiguity would be when said opponent is felled to the ground by said technique. Knocking someone to the ground is not only visual, but also definitive.



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GS718Trek
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps, just perhaps, the only point that can be awarded without any ambiguity would be when said opponent is felled to the ground by said technique. Knocking someone to the ground is not only visual, but also definitive.

Indeed, definitive!


So far, I'm digging the concepts!
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