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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 1:45 pm Post subject: Rolling Side Mount Escape to Punch Choke |
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Here's a bit of an extended clip that deals with our subject material of the week: escaping side mount. For this clip, we deal with the less than ideal situation of being forced to turn away from the side pressure and follow up with a technical fluid transition and drive to attack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLU7y5G1V00
Keeping ahead of the opponents OODA loop is key and moving to an aggressive tactic can go a long ways to accomplishing that. This is a version of the lapel choke I like, but at the end of the day the importance of the transition is what is critical.
Who accepts turning away as a viable option to escape side mount? How much time to you spend accurately dealing with those risks? Thoughts, comments, concerns?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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When you said "choke", my ears perked up..."CHOKE"...YES!!
Excellent tutorial, Alex; as always, thank you for sharing!
Two things that I saw quickly that I wouldn't allow you to continue:
1) Just when you began to roll to acquire the guard, I'm not going to stay there while you roll. Like in chess, when you feel a shift is about to happen, you move from that square to not allow the attack/capture to occur. You roll...I move, and if I'm not asleep, I'm going to stand up while you're rolling. Then we'll have to reacquire each other once again.
2) You were able to get your legs wrapped around her waist because she stayed still; static, in this case, worked against her. If I allowed the roll, that's because I wanted to press you while you were rolling, and I've got 300 pounds coming down on you quickly...not fun for you at that point, as I wrap up one of your legs, and if I miss the leg, other options will still be there. Or at least, I'll scramble back to my feet before your legs start to twine around my waist. Chess 101...don't be there!!
While ones gi looks so cool and all, it sure can be used against someone quickly. Being choked with your own clothes is unsettling to say the least. In Shindokan, we've several advanced Tuite techniques that we can apply, depending on how the gi top is grasped, and at what stage the grasp is at at what part of the lapel is grasped to stop or slow down the choke, and I'm only needing a brief moment.
Aren't you concerned with your opponents gi being used against you? I'm not, and I suspect that you're not either. However, I don't want to forget its possibilities.
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| Who accepts turning away as a viable option to escape side mount? How much time to you spend accurately dealing with those risks? |
Nothing ventured, nothing gained!! I accept turning away as a viable option to escape side mount, however, it's a calculated risk that's worth risking because if my opponent stays static, I've wrapped my legs around and now checkmate can be seen soon. I don't spend much time dealing with the risks because my opponents not going to allow me to stall to ponder; act decisively quickly or lose!! Chess 101...your opponents moving his pieces TOO and studying TOO and looking ahead 5 moves TOO!!
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Some good points there that bear discussion so that non-grapplers can get a sense of the mindset.
As with all jiu jitsu, the roll to guard may or may not be there. It depends on his energy and the intricate angles that change with each match. I have landed precisely in this position with the roll. It's why I teach it. I've also had a million other things go on based on my choices, my partners choices, and just sheer probability.
Conversely, I've stopped such movements and been caught in them. Again, it's the factors that go into each individual roll that effect the outcome of said tactics.
Even with heavy opponents, you can really use a bottom based movement to change position. The problem is that we talk about it all the time, see it in rolls all the time, but very few people are actually practicing how to do it, when to do it, and how to make it happen mid roll. By drilling it as part of technique you really get to break the option down and make people understand proper application.
As to having my own gi used against me, yes, it's always on my mind. As BJJ evolves, particularly the sport aspect, more and more options are becoming available thru innovation. The gi attacks, either with your partners or yours, are becoming more and more prevalent. This is a good thing.
Think about it, by the time a person gets awarded a BB in BJJ they've been at this 7-10 years on average. How used to seeing some of the standard attacks are they used to seeing? So when we look at jiu jiitus vs. jiu jitsu matches innovation will always be driven to find the edge. So I'm all about seeing new things.
That said, there's an order these things go in. You learn a RNC first. That will always be more all-encompassing. Then, as you go, you'll learn more specialized attacks. The foundation has to be there first or the concepts on the higher level tactics will be lost.
There's a hefty amount of criticism in the BJJ community, and others, that this specialization has gone to far and pressed it into a competitive arena. That's certainly true, much of this is specific to jiu jitsu. But it's not a bad thing. It's another outlet for the art. If a practitioner is learning the art correctly, there should be no problem with learning these sorts of things because they've been adequately thru the fundamentals of the system.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| tallgeese wrote: |
Some good points there that bear discussion so that non-grapplers can get a sense of the mindset.
As with all jiu jitsu, the roll to guard may or may not be there. It depends on his energy and the intricate angles that change with each match. I have landed precisely in this position with the roll. It's why I teach it. I've also had a million other things go on based on my choices, my partners choices, and just sheer probability.
Conversely, I've stopped such movements and been caught in them. Again, it's the factors that go into each individual roll that effect the outcome of said tactics.
Even with heavy opponents, you can really use a bottom based movement to change position. The problem is that we talk about it all the time, see it in rolls all the time, but very few people are actually practicing how to do it, when to do it, and how to make it happen mid roll. By drilling it as part of technique you really get to break the option down and make people understand proper application.
As to having my own gi used against me, yes, it's always on my mind. As BJJ evolves, particularly the sport aspect, more and more options are becoming available thru innovation. The gi attacks, either with your partners or yours, are becoming more and more prevalent. This is a good thing.
Think about it, by the time a person gets awarded a BB in BJJ they've been at this 7-10 years on average. How used to seeing some of the standard attacks are they used to seeing? So when we look at jiu jiitus vs. jiu jitsu matches innovation will always be driven to find the edge. So I'm all about seeing new things.
That said, there's an order these things go in. You learn a RNC first. That will always be more all-encompassing. Then, as you go, you'll learn more specialized attacks. The foundation has to be there first or the concepts on the higher level tactics will be lost.
There's a hefty amount of criticism in the BJJ community, and others, that this specialization has gone to far and pressed it into a competitive arena. That's certainly true, much of this is specific to jiu jitsu. But it's not a bad thing. It's another outlet for the art. If a practitioner is learning the art correctly, there should be no problem with learning these sorts of things because they've been adequately thru the fundamentals of the system. |
Solid post, Alex. Hopefully, non-grapplers will begin to understand the mindset. I'd like to hear what others might have to add to the discussion.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 12:53 am Post subject: |
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With my limited BJJ experience, this one seems pretty complex to me. I'm sure our Wrestlers could probably pull it off, but it would take me some time and work to get through this one.
I don't mind turning the back to them like you do, because it appears you take appropriate steps to prevent the two worst things that can happen to you: the choke, and the hooks. And like you say, you don't stay there for long.
Again, though, this would take some time for my simpleton grappling mind to wrap my head around for use.
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
With my limited BJJ experience, this one seems pretty complex to me. I'm sure our Wrestlers could probably pull it off, but it would take me some time and work to get through this one.
I don't mind turning the back to them like you do, because it appears you take appropriate steps to prevent the two worst things that can happen to you: the choke, and the hooks. And like you say, you don't stay there for long.
Again, though, this would take some time for my simpleton grappling mind to wrap my head around for use. |
I'm sure your skills are pretty well up to the need! That said, any rolling sorts of recovery can look really daunting. And again, it's a process. This shouldn't be first thing a person learns from bottom side. Nor should it be the first option for everyone else.
Even with that, it's actually easier than it looks at first glance. Take the time to set into the position. Then, look at adding the roll step by step.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| tallgeese wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
With my limited BJJ experience, this one seems pretty complex to me. I'm sure our Wrestlers could probably pull it off, but it would take me some time and work to get through this one.
I don't mind turning the back to them like you do, because it appears you take appropriate steps to prevent the two worst things that can happen to you: the choke, and the hooks. And like you say, you don't stay there for long.
Again, though, this would take some time for my simpleton grappling mind to wrap my head around for use. |
I'm sure your skills are pretty well up to the need! That said, any rolling sorts of recovery can look really daunting. And again, it's a process. This shouldn't be first thing a person learns from bottom side. Nor should it be the first option for everyone else.
Even with that, it's actually easier than it looks at first glance. Take the time to set into the position. Then, look at adding the roll step by step. |
I might venture to give it a try, at least really slowly, and see how it works out.
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www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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RAM18
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Feb 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Sussex, UK
Styles: Wado Ryu, Brazillian Jujitsu
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Interesting video.
Don't want to be down about it as i'm only a low belt in BJJ myself but i think for like White/blue belt level that could be risky as essentially your turning away from your opponent then giving your back up completely to escape a side control. Which so far I've been told is a bit of a no no. It would be easy for the attacker on top to shift position as you turn. Guy on the bottom on his side has legs together on the ground therefore has no guard if attacker stands or moves for a mount position. Any mistake there and your going to find yourself with your back taken and fighting out of a rear choke or mounted??
Feels like the guard takes too long to get back.
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| RAM18 wrote: |
Interesting video.
Don't want to be down about it as i'm only a low belt in BJJ myself but i think for like White/blue belt level that could be risky as essentially your turning away from your opponent then giving your back up completely to escape a side control. Which so far I've been told is a bit of a no no. It would be easy for the attacker on top to shift position as you turn. Guy on the bottom on his side has legs together on the ground therefore has no guard if attacker stands or moves for a mount position. Any mistake there and your going to find yourself with your back taken and fighting out of a rear choke or mounted??
Feels like the guard takes too long to get back. |
It's a good point and we often tell the White/ Blue level that this is never to be done. I'd agree that it's less than optimal. However, it happens all the time. When you start digging into the side pressure that Purple and above can generate turning in can be impossible. If I make the choice to go away, I want to do so with a clear understanding of the risks. If it's going to happen, I need to understand how it's done. Hence, the extended leg to prevent the modified mount and offset prayer to protect the next.
Hip mobility will generally prevent a movement to full mount during the transition IF you understand the application of rotational movement. The roll to recovery is a drill as much as a technique. Movement in and around the guard becomes super important to a dynamic guard recovery. The more you leave these kinds of things up to the "scramble" the more likely the bigger, stronger, athletic person is to win. The more sensitive that one is to how to move during recovery the less scramble that occurs and the more technical manipulation occurs.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 4:06 am Post subject: |
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I like seeing all the points being made here, for and against the practicalities of this technique.
One thing I try to remember about the BJJ techniques I see, no matter how crazy they appear, is that none of them, none of them, happen in a vacuum. Not like a fancy TKD kick that can be done outside of sparring for board breaking, or in a freestyle form. If you are seeing a BJJ technique being taught, its not because someone thought it was a fancy technique done in a one-step type of an environment. It was most likely trained in a free-rolling environment, and pulled off multiple times in that environment, against various levels of skill and experience in the opponents, and then refined and the kinks worked out, so that you know that it CAN work. Not that it always will, but it CAN.
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on the post.
