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sdargie
Orange Belt
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 129
Location: Allston, MA
Styles: Hapchidado
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 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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I've also heard/read that the sai was the top part of a pitchfork, was the piece of metal that kept wells attached to carts, and was derived from the weapon the Okinawan police carried. I think the last origin has the most merit but it doesn't seem like anyone decisively knows.
I also read somewhere that the nunchucks were used to plant seeds. Poke holes with the handles and use the rope/chain to pull dirt over the top.
| isshiniryu5toforever wrote: |
| I have to ask, how did you almost get into an altercation with someone with a samurai sword? |
Quoted for emphasis since I want to know too.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:39 am Post subject: |
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No, the pitch for was longer and curved, the nunchucku, dont know about that really, and okinawan police carried tonfas
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| The sai was use for poking holes in the ground so that they could plant seeds, the comma was use to cut grain, and if yall didnt know...the bo was used for carreing buckets full of water, the tonfa was used as the handle on the well to bring up the bucket of water, the nunchucks where used as a rice flail, oh yeah i guess i did spell kama lol. |
followed by:
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| and you take shorin ryu, how did you not know this? |
Yes, I knew the kama was for cutting in agricultural purposes. I never said it wasn't. I was merely fooling around at the "comma" typo. The kama was used for 100s of years as a weapon, although bigger and more durable ones were used by Bushi.
The bo is pretty much multi-purpose and could have evolved in any number of ways. They did, however, have records of battles where bo were being employed as early as the 1300s. It wasn't something just adapted from farm use. Yes, farmers may have easily done it, but so may have someone using a large walking staff or any number of things. Many villages had their own bo kata. Some were complex, some were only a few moves.
But again, it has a long and rich history of being a weapon.
As for the tonfa, the more popular story is the handle for grist mill. There are some sources which believe it was adapted from the "iron crutch" of China, a light and easily carried shield named "dong-wah" from Fujian China (John Sells). In addition, there may even be some Filipino influences as well. It is a possibility the weapon was taken and disguised as a farm implement instead of growing from one. It was still used as one, but its origin was a weapon. That is a more interesting yet still plausible argument. More so than the handle on a well, which would really only be useful if you happened to be by a well...(They just didn't walk around and carry their weapons and farm tools all day long...)
The nunchucks [sic] (how that term grates my ears) probably derived from various sources. One of these is the nung-cha-kung in Fujian China. Again, already a weapon imported from China is a likely answer, although the Okinawan version is much shorter. Another popular one based on the type of "older nunchaku" made were a conversion of horse bridles and very much look like it. This makes sense as Bushi were able to have horses, and thus have horse bridles around. As far as the rice and grain flail thing...have you ever seen a grain flail? Those things bear a passing resemblence, but look vastly difference in terms of length and how you would employ them. I (as does John Sells) tend to think that was more of a "fool the Japanese" story than anything else. Even the long handled Chinese flails are shorter than grain flails...
Again, there is also a theory that the Filipinos may have taught them some nunchaku. I believe perhaps a merging of all the above...minus the nunchaku.
...So yes, I have done a lot of research on the weapons, as I do practice Shorin Ryu. As such, I make it a point to dispel common myths among people that have not. The Okinawans who repeat these myths have some justification; it's a cultural and tradition thing...but the rest of us have no excuse.
Edit: In my excitement, I forgot to talk about the sai...did you ever run a logic test on that story? How expensive did you think metal was on a small island? Especially a large hunk of metal required to make sai? Do you think every farmer had one? Or three, like some people insist? (you see, they had two in a hand...they would throw one and then take the other from behind their back... *groan*). Furthermore, there were variants and antecedents of the sai as a weapon in China, again, from Fujian. It was used by the royal bodyguards and the local constables. Not peasants who would poke holes in the ground...you can use wood for that, no need for costly metal...
As far as the nunchaku being used to poke holes in the ground and then the rope to cover with dirt...that is also equally a myth.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Well im not saying that every farmer had them, but that is where they startewd out as a weapon, do you not think that i did everythinglittle thing i could when first started out to research everything about the system and the background of the weapons and why the system came along?
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ovine king
Brown Belt
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 725
Styles: noodle fu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:17 am Post subject: |
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about the name of nunchaku in chinese; it si simply "two section stick/staff" ("stick" and "staff" are almost interchangeable).
i don't recall it having another name.
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| Well im not saying that every farmer had them, but that is where they startewd out as a weapon, do you not think that i did everythinglittle thing i could when first started out to research everything about the system and the background of the weapons and why the system came along? |
Which weapon are you talking about? I've said that some were farming implements, some were hidden as farming implements (maybe) and some were always weapons on Okinawa. I am curious...what research have you done (books you've read, people you've talked to) about the weapons of Okinawa? I'm not calling you out...I'm just trying to see where your argument is coming from.
Edit: Ovine King, is that the nung-cha-kung (probably an inaccurate romanization perhaps?) or something else entirely? I am just curious, as my Chinese vocabulary is limited to "fortune cookie." Wait a minute...
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Just random books about okinawa, internet sites looking up radom things about weapons, and im talking about the sai
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, which books about Okinawa? And as far as the internet, it isn't the most reliable source on Okinawan history. There are some good sites, but many of them repeat the old myths and legends, usually not out of a malicious intent, but out of ignorance.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Weapons of the Fedual Era, History of Okinawa, and my master know a whole lot about it.
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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I am having trouble finding these books. Who wrote them and when were they published? And who is your master?
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on the post.
