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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: Self-defense and Fight training. Can they coincide? |
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Hey all. I'm interested in thoughts on the correlation that could exist between fight training, like for knockdown, grappling, or MMA competitions, and self-defense training, and if the two can be done simultaneously, but not so much with one at the expense of the other?
I know there are several schools of thoughts on this; between the "traditionalist" view point, the fighter view point, and what we would call the RBSD view point (a term I've noticed hasn't been popping up as much as it used to).
Once again, I look forward to any and all thought processes on this subject matter. 
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Sure they can...absolutely!! I don't see any reason(s) why it couldn't, after all, those are all of the ingredients in any given situation.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Depends on how high a level you want to compete. Weapons and scenario training are not time well spent to be a high level competitor.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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That makes sense. I agree that if you are wanting to make a commitment to professional fighting, then all your energies need to be focused in that area.
In that sense, one probably a high level athlete as it is, and therefore possesses certain tools that will lend themselves to being able to defend oneself when need be.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
In that sense, one probably a high level athlete as it is, and therefore possesses certain tools that will lend themselves to being able to defend oneself when need be. |
Yes, MMA is an excellent sd art, when combined with awareness and some knowledge of weapons.
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: |
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I would think that fight training, depending on which ruleset you're using, is a good basis for self defense but perhaps the relationship isn't seen as much on the other side. And if you wanted to train high levels of either, you'd probably be better restricting yourself to one aspect.
MMA and knockdown fighters will have the physical fitness and levels of athleticism which will only help in self defense. They also certainly know how to take a hit and dish them back out, so they could most likely successfully defend themselves. They would be lacking though in the use of weapons, scenario training, environmental awareness and also you'd think that they wouldn't have a great deal of experience in facing or dealing with multiple attackers and wouldn't have training in some techniques that are prohibited in competition.
On the other side of the coin, someone who'd only trained in a self-defense system might have to retrain somewhat to be good at competition. Probably the biggest barrier is they might be using techniques/target areas which aren't allowed in the ring and to rewrite those instincts might take a little bit of time. And of course learning weapons usage and training scenarios is probably wasted time if they were looking to compete. On an amateur level they'd probably be ok.
I know in my training I've made the concious decision to do the bare minimum self defense training and focus more on competition for the time being because it's just too much to focus on both.
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darksoul
Purple Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 548
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Styles: Shaolin Kempo
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Fight training is better than no training, however, in fight training you are bound by a set of rules (don't hit below the belt, don't hid certain body parts, don't use certain strikes or holds, etc...)
In a self-defense environment, there are no such rules. Groin shots are not only allowed, but encouraged.
In Kempo we don't fight, we end the fight, by any means necessary. We won't try to box the guy or roll with the guy, we'll strike and take them out of the fight as quickly as possible so we can get out of there safely.
Fight training can definitely help in self defense, but I think a self defense style might hinder the fight style due to the emphasis on "dirty" fighting.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
MMA and knockdown fighters will have the physical fitness and levels of athleticism which will only help in self defense. They also certainly know how to take a hit and dish them back out, so they could most likely successfully defend themselves. They would be lacking though in the use of weapons, scenario training, environmental awareness and also you'd think that they wouldn't have a great deal of experience in facing or dealing with multiple attackers and wouldn't have training in some techniques that are prohibited in competition. |
The points I list in bold give rise to some points for me. Situational awareness is something I believe that is a bit easier to train when not actively, physically training. Just taking the time while standing around to study where you are at, and come up with some scenarios in your mind of how to react to various stimuli. I'm not trying to over-simplify this concept, but I think its one that can be more easily intertwined amongst the two styles.
As far as scenario training goes, I agree and disagree. No, the fight training is not likely covering weapons scenarios or impromptu muggings. But, they do plug contact levels into the scenario more often than not, and end up training under a more intense level than some RBSD scenarios. But, this is dependent on the trainers, as well.
| DWx wrote: |
| I know in my training I've made the concious decision to do the bare minimum self defense training and focus more on competition for the time being because it's just too much to focus on both. |
Thank you for contributing your own such experiences to the discussion. I think these experiences really lend to the discussion.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| darksoul wrote: |
Fight training is better than no training, however, in fight training you are bound by a set of rules (don't hit below the belt, don't hid certain body parts, don't use certain strikes or holds, etc...)
In a self-defense environment, there are no such rules. Groin shots are not only allowed, but encouraged. |
And this is what we see the most when it comes to training the two different styles, the give and take of contact levels vs target selection.
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
MMA and knockdown fighters will have the physical fitness and levels of athleticism which will only help in self defense. They also certainly know how to take a hit and dish them back out, so they could most likely successfully defend themselves. They would be lacking though in the use of weapons, scenario training, environmental awareness and also you'd think that they wouldn't have a great deal of experience in facing or dealing with multiple attackers and wouldn't have training in some techniques that are prohibited in competition. |
The points I list in bold give rise to some points for me. Situational awareness is something I believe that is a bit easier to train when not actively, physically training. Just taking the time while standing around to study where you are at, and come up with some scenarios in your mind of how to react to various stimuli. I'm not trying to over-simplify this concept, but I think its one that can be more easily intertwined amongst the two styles.
As far as scenario training goes, I agree and disagree. No, the fight training is not likely covering weapons scenarios or impromptu muggings. But, they do plug contact levels into the scenario more often than not, and end up training under a more intense level than some RBSD scenarios. But, this is dependent on the trainers, as well. |
Good points. TBH, perhaps because I've decided not to really pursue self-defense training, I don't know how much time and effort people tend to put into training scenarios. I guess you're right in that situational awareness isn't something which needs to be trained in the gym per se but a pure competition fighter could easily work this into their day.
Perhaps another to consider, which competition fighters might not be bothered with, is conflict de-escalation. Whilst strictly not something you might physically train for, it's something that wouldn't necessarily cross the mind of your average competition fighter unless they wanted to think about self-defense.
Another thing to consider is that those that practice for self-defense might not have a grasp on other tactics which come into play when competing: things like ring control, what techniques give you more points, and fighting on a longer time scale and the tactics which go with that.
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on the post.
