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Davis
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:45 pm Post subject: Shoto Kai, Nejii, Karate and Internals |
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I thought about posting this in the karate forum, but this seems like the right place.
Shoto Kai was a style started by Funakoshi. His successors brought it forward as Shotokan, but one of his students, Shigeru Egami, preserved the name Shoto Kai.
Shoto Kai is about relaxation of the body and spiritual development through karate. They do not believe in kumite or competition of any sort.
They are remarkably similar to what I have discovered in my journey. My home style is Shito Ryu but Egami's teachings are too good to pass over. So I remain with Shito Ryu (there are no Shoto Kai dojos anywhere close to me, I think there is only one in Canada, period).
I am an outlier and my enrollment has dwindled over the years of course, since people expect something from karate and don't get quite that thing from my teaching.
Anyone else here know of Egami's work, writings or the art and wish to discuss?
The main concept is that applying karate to fighting destroys its purpose. They quote Funakoshi himself, who did not believe in competition. The idea was to train technique for self development, then if a fight happens, one is as prepared as one must be. Egami takes it further, into the domain of spiritual practice. In this he appears to differ from Funakoshi, who saw karate as art and as a practical defense system.
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cathal
Black Belt
Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 2237
Location: Atlantic Canada
Styles: Shotokan (Ryukyu Kobujutsu, Iaido)
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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As I recall the original wasn't named Shoto Kai but rather Dai Nihon Karate-do Kenkyukai; Its been known as Dai Nihon Karate-do Shotokai since 1936, I believe. The main split seems to have been about the nature of competition. Competing made you not want to use full speed & power as this could risk serious injury or death of one's sparring partner. Thus one had to change their method of fighting, diluting the technique and also going against Funakoshi's original wish that karateka shouldn't compete at all.
As I recall, they do the same kata but their movements flow moreso than in Shotokan.
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The best victory is when the opponent surrenders
of its own accord before there are any actual
hostilities...It is best to win without fighting.
- Sun-tzu |
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Davis
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Not as interested in the historical info, though it is appreciated. More the nature of karate as a meditative practice. And how bunkai, competition and other things could actually be counterproductive to its true purpose, that of self development.
You focus on fighting, you lose the focus on internal harmony. You focus on competition, you lose this as well. In fact, I would go as far to say that most karate has lost its way, and is profane in use. Its either sporty spice, or bunkai spice. You cannot do all 3 well, fighting, sporting and meditative practice in kata. One will come to dominate the others.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Davis wrote: |
Not as interested in the historical info, though it is appreciated. More the nature of karate as a meditative practice. And how bunkai, competition and other things could actually be counterproductive to its true purpose, that of self development.
You focus on fighting, you lose the focus on internal harmony. You focus on competition, you lose this as well. In fact, I would go as far to say that most karate has lost its way, and is profane in use. Its either sporty spice, or bunkai spice. You cannot do all 3 well, fighting, sporting and meditative practice in kata. One will come to dominate the others. |
I disagree. I think there is a place for all of those things in karate while we maintain internal harmony. I don't believe that a focus on fighting necessitates a dis-focus from meditation or internal awareness.
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Davis
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:05 am Post subject: |
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This is why I never talk to karate folks about this. We are on different planets. I think my time on this forum has seen itself through. Too much talk of fighting. Not the right karate way.
I have nothing more to contribute.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| Davis wrote: |
Not as interested in the historical info, though it is appreciated. More the nature of karate as a meditative practice. And how bunkai, competition and other things could actually be counterproductive to its true purpose, that of self development.
You focus on fighting, you lose the focus on internal harmony. You focus on competition, you lose this as well. In fact, I would go as far to say that most karate has lost its way, and is profane in use. Its either sporty spice, or bunkai spice. You cannot do all 3 well, fighting, sporting and meditative practice in kata. One will come to dominate the others. |
I disagree. I think there is a place for all of those things in karate while we maintain internal harmony. I don't believe that a focus on fighting necessitates a dis-focus from meditation or internal awareness. |
I agree with Zaine. I think its possible to have a balance. I also think many people find meditative benefits from all kinds of different activities, and they aren't just reserved for specific activities. I think a lot of it has to do with how a person is wired, which includes their philosophical views. I think this is why there are so many different styles out there.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: |
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The balance must be found within oneself, imho. The MA can get in the way of ones own MA journey. How so? Misplaced emphasis as brought on my well meaning styles/instructors. The forest does get in the way of the trees, the individual trees, that is.
Bunkai, competition, and the other things only become counterproductive if self ALLOWS it to be so. A proponent of one but not all is akin to only eating one slice of the pie, and not the whole pie. Training in a balanced nature of Karate, and I respect Egami's teachings, but I'm an individual who may respect his teachings, but, the summation of 'why' is to the summation of 'because' while I'm learning to understand my own karate-do.
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| You cannot do all 3 well, fighting, sporting and meditative practice in kata. One will come to dominate the others. |
Imho, if one cannot do all 3 well, then that practitioner has lost their way, if they ever had it. My 50 years in Shindokan wasn't done in vain!! I did all 3 well; they were well balanced. Immaturity allows one to dominate aspects, and I was immature until I matured as both an individual and as a MAist.
Shindokan ISN'T sport Karate; it's an oxymoron! Yes, I competed! Yes, I train in Kata/Bunkai! Yes, I fight! I'm complete as a MAist!! NO ONE can tell me that I can't do all 3 well when I've been doing just that. How so? I'm not a Karate robot programmed to do this and do that and only this and that. I'm an individual who searches the balance within my own Karate-do.
To say that I can't do this and can't do that, and it's impossible is to say that Saitou Sensei and Takahashi Sensei didn't have a minimum of an idea of what they were doing. But ONLY Egami knew!! Either of these fine MAists had their ways in their own Karate-do, and while I'm a product of Takahashi Sensei, I'm my own Karateka!!
I hope you continue here, Davis because I believe that you've a lot to contribute. Isn't the beauty of discussions to not always see eye to eye. I'm a proponent of Karate and all of its ideologies and methodologies, but I'm not the programmed dolt of a robot that blindly follows in the shadows of other MAist's. NO! I'm forging my own MA path...STILL!! Is my MA path perfect? That too, is an oxymoron, imho! No ones MA path is perfect!
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on the post.
