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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
When I was a young teenager I was doing Shotokan and the Friday night instructor was the meanest person ever. He would do katas and I couldn't do it right and he kept saying making rude remarks not worth mentioning.
. |
When I used to train as a teenager, in wado then kung fu, the instructors were very mean. But they were mean because they were instilling discipline while teaching combat.
Back then, this was the 1980s, I've heard it was even worse going further back, being a martial arts instructor was a free ticket to be violent. They would step us mid technique, make us hold our position and focus while having a leisurely walk around inspecting. And then they test someone at random. A totally unprovoked punch to the face to see if you block it or evade in time. Or a leg sweep to test how solid your stance is. It sounds horrible, but it sharpish develops your mental readiness and attention to detail. If you blocked or dodges their random attack, they'd look at you for a moment, you'd look straight back at them with no emotion on your face whatsoever, they'd pause, you'd keep staring, then they'd give a subtle nod and move along the lines.
I remember one day at kung fu. We had a new guy. He was only on his second or third class. Our grandmaster visited from China. I guess if he'd known this guy was only on his second or third class he might have cut him a bit of slack. Anyway, he'd stopped us mid technique for inspection. There we all were eyes forward, no expression on our faces, machine like. Except the new guy who was looking about and smirking. I saw grandmaster in my peripheral vision slowly heading down the line inspecting us. He got to me, made some subtle adjustments to my posture, and moved on. I remember being surprised that he walked straight past the fidgety guy. Then suddenly, all I heard was HAI. ... BOOM. The grandmaster had delivered a dragon tail sweep and the fidgety new guy had literally gone airborne, and crash landed flat on his back.
He never came back to class after that day. |
I started in the 70's and I can attest to the difference in teaching styles then compared to the softer gentler side of teaching now.
I have many stories of walking home with a broken nose, bruises and the occasional broken finger or toe. Even a few ribs.
However I did not perceive it as being brutal. All instructors were the same in their methods of teaching. They were all very strict and they all believed in contact. However none of them, at least in my opinion, were out to hurt you. You were hurt in the process of training because you missed the punch and got hit. It wasn't vindictive or an excuse to beat on their students, it was real.
I agree that now days these same men that we revered and respected back then would be looking at aggravated assault charges but then it was just common place and to be expected.
I don't condone instructors using their students as punching bags, what-so-ever, but I do feel that the lessons then taught students how to fight vs the soft side of training that is seen in the vast majority of schools these days.
90% of schools practice no contact or very, very light contact. This might be great for those that are looking for a good work out but I feel it hinders those looking to actually learn how to defend themselves. I feel it robs them of lessons that can only be learned with contact.
Do I feel that training might have stepped over the boundary line from time to time back then? Most assuredly. However there is something to be said for the lessons that contact teaches.
1. you loose your fear of being hit and realize it's not the end of the world. There are those in the MA's that have never been hit (really hit). I have known some of these people and it's interesting to see the first time they taste a solid strike. Lets say that the vast majority of the time they do not react like they thought they would.
2. you learn very fast. You don't want to get hit again so you improve very fast out of necessity.
3. you learn what works and what doesn't work. Lets face it, those that have never experienced the pain that some strikes produce on the body can be sold just about any bridge. A friends kid was taking, what he called Karate, and was showing me what they were learning. He was explaining what happened if you hit someone here or there. I asked him if he had seen the effects first hand and he admitted that they do not actually contact other students or instructors for that matter. 30% of what he thought was effective would possibly cause some minor damage and 70% would just serve to anger the attacker more unless you were fighting a complete wimp.
4. you actually could fight by the time you reached Shodan. Believe it or not there was a time that you had to be able to defend yourself by a given time to be promoted. "I know, I know, it's just another step on the rung and just another belt". I've heard it all before but there was a time when you had to prove your ability to fight and the way you were taught fostered those abilities and produced students that could not only handle themselves but do it well. Of course that was then and this is now. Nothing lasts forever. Nothing good anyway.
There are some that would say there is never a reason for contact. I for one believe whole heartedly in it. I personally do not believe that you can teach a combat art without realism. Brutality, No. Contact and realism, Yes.
But then again, that's coming from someone that didn't think teachers back then were just violent people with a license to brutalize their students but actually people that wanted their students to be able to fight.
Maybe I'm wrong.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
When I was a young teenager I was doing Shotokan and the Friday night instructor was the meanest person ever. He would do katas and I couldn't do it right and he kept saying making rude remarks not worth mentioning.
. |
When I used to train as a teenager, in wado then kung fu, the instructors were very mean. But they were mean because they were instilling discipline while teaching combat.
Back then, this was the 1980s, I've heard it was even worse going further back, being a martial arts instructor was a free ticket to be violent. They would step us mid technique, make us hold our position and focus while having a leisurely walk around inspecting. And then they test someone at random. A totally unprovoked punch to the face to see if you block it or evade in time. Or a leg sweep to test how solid your stance is. It sounds horrible, but it sharpish develops your mental readiness and attention to detail. If you blocked or dodges their random attack, they'd look at you for a moment, you'd look straight back at them with no emotion on your face whatsoever, they'd pause, you'd keep staring, then they'd give a subtle nod and move along the lines.
I remember one day at kung fu. We had a new guy. He was only on his second or third class. Our grandmaster visited from China. I guess if he'd known this guy was only on his second or third class he might have cut him a bit of slack. Anyway, he'd stopped us mid technique for inspection. There we all were eyes forward, no expression on our faces, machine like. Except the new guy who was looking about and smirking. I saw grandmaster in my peripheral vision slowly heading down the line inspecting us. He got to me, made some subtle adjustments to my posture, and moved on. I remember being surprised that he walked straight past the fidgety guy. Then suddenly, all I heard was HAI. ... BOOM. The grandmaster had delivered a dragon tail sweep and the fidgety new guy had literally gone airborne, and crash landed flat on his back.
He never came back to class after that day. |
I understand being mean as a form of discipline but this guy was throwing insults at me. He wasn't correctly my stance, he wasn't telling me to do 60 push ups on my knuckles. He was just throwing insults and chuckling in a condescending way and I think he made a remark about being able to beat Mike Tyson because he is a black belt while all boxers are " too stupid to grasp the brilliance of karate"
Arrrgghhh, he grossed me out. Just throwing insults and boastful claims while not even being mean for sake of teaching. All he made us do is Kata. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
When I was a young teenager I was doing Shotokan and the Friday night instructor was the meanest person ever. He would do katas and I couldn't do it right and he kept saying making rude remarks not worth mentioning.
. |
When I used to train as a teenager, in wado then kung fu, the instructors were very mean. But they were mean because they were instilling discipline while teaching combat.
Back then, this was the 1980s, I've heard it was even worse going further back, being a martial arts instructor was a free ticket to be violent. They would step us mid technique, make us hold our position and focus while having a leisurely walk around inspecting. And then they test someone at random. A totally unprovoked punch to the face to see if you block it or evade in time. Or a leg sweep to test how solid your stance is. It sounds horrible, but it sharpish develops your mental readiness and attention to detail. If you blocked or dodges their random attack, they'd look at you for a moment, you'd look straight back at them with no emotion on your face whatsoever, they'd pause, you'd keep staring, then they'd give a subtle nod and move along the lines.
I remember one day at kung fu. We had a new guy. He was only on his second or third class. Our grandmaster visited from China. I guess if he'd known this guy was only on his second or third class he might have cut him a bit of slack. Anyway, he'd stopped us mid technique for inspection. There we all were eyes forward, no expression on our faces, machine like. Except the new guy who was looking about and smirking. I saw grandmaster in my peripheral vision slowly heading down the line inspecting us. He got to me, made some subtle adjustments to my posture, and moved on. I remember being surprised that he walked straight past the fidgety guy. Then suddenly, all I heard was HAI. ... BOOM. The grandmaster had delivered a dragon tail sweep and the fidgety new guy had literally gone airborne, and crash landed flat on his back.
He never came back to class after that day. |
I understand being mean as a form of discipline but this guy was throwing insults at me. He wasn't correctly my stance, he wasn't telling me to do 60 push ups on my knuckles. He was just throwing insults and chuckling in a condescending way and I think he made a remark about being able to beat Mike Tyson because he is a black belt while all boxers are " too stupid to grasp the brilliance of karate"
Arrrgghhh, he grossed me out. Just throwing insults and boastful claims while not even being mean for sake of teaching. All he made us do is Kata. |
Not all black belts, and/or Sempai's for that matter of fact, can teach, nor should they ever attempt to. Things beyond technical excellence have to be garnered in order to have even the minimum of an idea as to what teaching students is all about.
Having that affable characteristics towards students is as basic as it gets. I don't subscribe to the bully teaching mentality, and I'll terminate with cause immediately, and if it's warranted, I'll expel said Instructor/Sempai.
Being rude in any degree towards a student and/or fellow MAist and/or anyone is uncalled for because everyone deserves to be treated like a human being. Just because someone is a human being, that doesn't mean that that someone knows how to be like a human being!!
Your Sempai in question would've been called on the carpet to be held accountable for those actions. I would've placed that Sempai on a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan), and that Sempai would've had to successfully passed each monthly phase, which has a 3 month duration. If not successful in any said phase, immediate termination with cause would've occurred.
Our students are our internal customers, and without them, there's no business; just an empty building, and an empty building can't support the infrastructure.
Want to hurl insults and not build up positively the students MA betterment!? Then that is sorely against the SKKA's Mission Statement; that's unacceptable...no exceptions...no tolerance!!
Speak with your CI about this. If you don't receive the answer(s) your asking for, then perhaps it's time for you to search for another school.
Good luck, and hang in there!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
When I was a young teenager I was doing Shotokan and the Friday night instructor was the meanest person ever. He would do katas and I couldn't do it right and he kept saying making rude remarks not worth mentioning.
. |
When I used to train as a teenager, in wado then kung fu, the instructors were very mean. But they were mean because they were instilling discipline while teaching combat.
Back then, this was the 1980s, I've heard it was even worse going further back, being a martial arts instructor was a free ticket to be violent. They would step us mid technique, make us hold our position and focus while having a leisurely walk around inspecting. And then they test someone at random. A totally unprovoked punch to the face to see if you block it or evade in time. Or a leg sweep to test how solid your stance is. It sounds horrible, but it sharpish develops your mental readiness and attention to detail. If you blocked or dodges their random attack, they'd look at you for a moment, you'd look straight back at them with no emotion on your face whatsoever, they'd pause, you'd keep staring, then they'd give a subtle nod and move along the lines.
I remember one day at kung fu. We had a new guy. He was only on his second or third class. Our grandmaster visited from China. I guess if he'd known this guy was only on his second or third class he might have cut him a bit of slack. Anyway, he'd stopped us mid technique for inspection. There we all were eyes forward, no expression on our faces, machine like. Except the new guy who was looking about and smirking. I saw grandmaster in my peripheral vision slowly heading down the line inspecting us. He got to me, made some subtle adjustments to my posture, and moved on. I remember being surprised that he walked straight past the fidgety guy. Then suddenly, all I heard was HAI. ... BOOM. The grandmaster had delivered a dragon tail sweep and the fidgety new guy had literally gone airborne, and crash landed flat on his back.
He never came back to class after that day. |
I started in the 70's and I can attest to the difference in teaching styles then compared to the softer gentler side of teaching now.
I have many stories of walking home with a broken nose, bruises and the occasional broken finger or toe. Even a few ribs.
However I did not perceive it as being brutal. All instructors were the same in their methods of teaching. They were all very strict and they all believed in contact. However none of them, at least in my opinion, were out to hurt you. You were hurt in the process of training because you missed the punch and got hit. It wasn't vindictive or an excuse to beat on their students, it was real.
I agree that now days these same men that we revered and respected back then would be looking at aggravated assault charges but then it was just common place and to be expected.
I don't condone instructors using their students as punching bags, what-so-ever, but I do feel that the lessons then taught students how to fight vs the soft side of training that is seen in the vast majority of schools these days.
90% of schools practice no contact or very, very light contact. This might be great for those that are looking for a good work out but I feel it hinders those looking to actually learn how to defend themselves. I feel it robs them of lessons that can only be learned with contact.
Do I feel that training might have stepped over the boundary line from time to time back then? Most assuredly. However there is something to be said for the lessons that contact teaches.
1. you loose your fear of being hit and realize it's not the end of the world. There are those in the MA's that have never been hit (really hit). I have known some of these people and it's interesting to see the first time they taste a solid strike. Lets say that the vast majority of the time they do not react like they thought they would.
2. you learn very fast. You don't want to get hit again so you improve very fast out of necessity.
3. you learn what works and what doesn't work. Lets face it, those that have never experienced the pain that some strikes produce on the body can be sold just about any bridge. A friends kid was taking, what he called Karate, and was showing me what they were learning. He was explaining what happened if you hit someone here or there. I asked him if he had seen the effects first hand and he admitted that they do not actually contact other students or instructors for that matter. 30% of what he thought was effective would possibly cause some minor damage and 70% would just serve to anger the attacker more unless you were fighting a complete wimp.
4. you actually could fight by the time you reached Shodan. Believe it or not there was a time that you had to be able to defend yourself by a given time to be promoted. "I know, I know, it's just another step on the rung and just another belt". I've heard it all before but there was a time when you had to prove your ability to fight and the way you were taught fostered those abilities and produced students that could not only handle themselves but do it well. Of course that was then and this is now. Nothing lasts forever. Nothing good anyway.
There are some that would say there is never a reason for contact. I for one believe wholeheartedly in it. I personally do not believe that you can teach a combat art without realism. Brutality, No. Contact and realism, Yes.
But then again, that's coming from someone that didn't think teachers back then were just violent people with a license to brutalize their students but actually people that wanted their students to be able to fight.
Maybe I'm wrong. |
Solid post!!
Student AREN'T punching bags; they're human beings, and they deserve CI/Instructors/Sempai's that have at least the modicum of decency towards their fellow human beings.
Strictness and toughness are the mere staples of a CI/Instructor/Sempai; challenging their students to strive to improve themselves on and off the floor. That strictness and toughness isn't the same thing as whopping on a student at will whenever they want to; just because they're in a position of authority and hold a black belt or a brown/red belt.
Accidents are called that because the intent wasn't on purpose. Injuries are the unfortunate, but acceptable, side effects in the MA. Especially when students train in styles that teach Resisting Training; in a give-and-take atmosphere, injuries aren't about 'if', but more like 'when', even under the very watchful eyes of the CI/Instructor/Sempai!!
The Kun doesn't allow, well, it shouldn't allow, the bully teaching mentality across the board because that's not what the student's paying for. If the student allows that to happen, then the student's just as guilty as the bully teacher; get out and away from the CI/Instructor/Sempai that are proponents of that diseased bully teaching mentality.
No student...absolutely nobody, deserves nothing but the CI/Instructor/Sempai's very professional best all of the time, and the bully teaching mentality ISN'T the best. The bully teaching mentality IS the worse.
Train hard...train well!! NOT, be a punching bag because the CI/Instructor/Sempai are insecure in themselves across the board and is/are a big mean bully!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
When I was a young teenager I was doing Shotokan and the Friday night instructor was the meanest person ever. He would do katas and I couldn't do it right and he kept saying making rude remarks not worth mentioning.
. |
When I used to train as a teenager, in wado then kung fu, the instructors were very mean. But they were mean because they were instilling discipline while teaching combat.
Back then, this was the 1980s, I've heard it was even worse going further back, being a martial arts instructor was a free ticket to be violent. They would step us mid technique, make us hold our position and focus while having a leisurely walk around inspecting. And then they test someone at random. A totally unprovoked punch to the face to see if you block it or evade in time. Or a leg sweep to test how solid your stance is. It sounds horrible, but it sharpish develops your mental readiness and attention to detail. If you blocked or dodges their random attack, they'd look at you for a moment, you'd look straight back at them with no emotion on your face whatsoever, they'd pause, you'd keep staring, then they'd give a subtle nod and move along the lines.
I remember one day at kung fu. We had a new guy. He was only on his second or third class. Our grandmaster visited from China. I guess if he'd known this guy was only on his second or third class he might have cut him a bit of slack. Anyway, he'd stopped us mid technique for inspection. There we all were eyes forward, no expression on our faces, machine like. Except the new guy who was looking about and smirking. I saw grandmaster in my peripheral vision slowly heading down the line inspecting us. He got to me, made some subtle adjustments to my posture, and moved on. I remember being surprised that he walked straight past the fidgety guy. Then suddenly, all I heard was HAI. ... BOOM. The grandmaster had delivered a dragon tail sweep and the fidgety new guy had literally gone airborne, and crash landed flat on his back.
He never came back to class after that day. |
I understand being mean as a form of discipline but this guy was throwing insults at me. He wasn't correctly my stance, he wasn't telling me to do 60 push ups on my knuckles. He was just throwing insults and chuckling in a condescending way and I think he made a remark about being able to beat Mike Tyson because he is a black belt while all boxers are " too stupid to grasp the brilliance of karate"
Arrrgghhh, he grossed me out. Just throwing insults and boastful claims while not even being mean for sake of teaching. All he made us do is Kata. |
Not all black belts, and/or Sempai's for that matter of fact, can teach, nor should they ever attempt to. Things beyond technical excellence have to be garnered in order to have even the minimum of an idea as to what teaching students is all about.
Having that affable characteristics towards students is as basic as it gets. I don't subscribe to the bully teaching mentality, and I'll terminate with cause immediately, and if it's warranted, I'll expel said Instructor/Sempai.
Being rude in any degree towards a student and/or fellow MAist and/or anyone is uncalled for because everyone deserves to be treated like a human being. Just because someone is a human being, that doesn't mean that that someone knows how to be like a human being!!
Your Sempai in question would've been called on the carpet to be held accountable for those actions. I would've placed that Sempai on a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan), and that Sempai would've had to successfully passed each monthly phase, which has a 3 month duration. If not successful in any said phase, immediate termination with cause would've occurred.
Our students are our internal customers, and without them, there's no business; just an empty building, and an empty building can't support the infrastructure.
Want to hurl insults and not build up positively the students MA betterment!? Then that is sorely against the SKKA's Mission Statement; that's unacceptable...no exceptions...no tolerance!!
Speak with your CI about this. If you don't receive the answer(s) your asking for, then perhaps it's time for you to search for another school.
Good luck, and hang in there!!
|
Great points as usual. Last karate place I trained was Kyokushin and the sempie, sensei and shihan had zero reason to yell, scream or hit a student because...sparring was our final treat before the conclusion of class and Kyokushin folks have to get their sparring in no matter what.
As the saying goes, the proof is on the floor. So no need to punch someone in the face or scream and yell at them because the nature of kyokushin would instill that obedience. That and most people are already being exposed to abusive people that yell and scream either at work, family or school.
I briefly had an opportunity to teach boxing to one person, my goal was the following:
1. Teach him solid fundamentals like footwork, jab, proper guard.
2. Hold pads in manner that addresses infighting, mid-range and out-boxing.
3. Show him different boxing styles that are outside the conventional style so for the future he can work his creativity.
4. Spar him using speed and not power so reaction is sharpened and damage not taken.
My intent is to help student understand proper conventional move set, open his eyes to unconventional for creativity while acquiring the stamina/fitness without being concussed. This is what I learned when I trained with world champion boxers and high caliber karatekas
That being said, the only time being a bit rough is alright is if the students are disobedient and order needs to be established so they understand that but the roughness cant be exerted on one or two individuals. Otherwise its going to make it look like its personal. |
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