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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:47 pm    Post subject: Vertical vs Horizontal Punch Reply with quote

I was just thinking about this the other day, and thought it might make for some interesting conversation. Vertical punches vs horizontal punches, how and when we use them, and which we prefer and why?

Most of the punching done in my TKD forms are horizontal in nature, with that full rotation that is classically applied to TKD and a lot of Karate punches. There are some vertical punches in my forms, but most of those are done as a twin punching technique with both hands at the same time. Not really any single, vertical punches. I did do some in my ATA TKD forms, though.

I think that rotating the wrist completely over in the horizontal punching method can at times lead to the elbow flaring out a bit more than when vertical punching. However, with vertical punching, the lack of the wrist turning seems to take a little off the punch, at least to me.

What I've done more recently, especially when hitting the heavy bag, is rotate my hand about halfway between horizontal and vertical, to about 45 degrees. I still notice the little extra from the rotation, and feel it is more efficient than a complete rotation to horizontal.

Has anyone else experimented with this? Do you have a preference in the orientation of the fist when you punch?
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DWx
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I tend to rotate right over for a lot of shots. Almost thumb down. This has the advantage of raising your shoulder and protecting the head.

In ITF TKD we do see variants on fist position in the forms, and single vertical punches. These are for short range attacks on the whole, into the gut or kidneys, unless like you say twin fist which is longer range to the jaw.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played around with rotating the fist over, to the thumb down position, mostly on the bag, but have not done it much in sparring that I can recall. In self-defense, I think that can be quite useful in coming over the top of another hand attack to get to the opponent's head.

Of course, there are other variations of the punches, like the upset/uppercut style punches, which are mainly upside-down horizontal punches.

Danielle, do you notice any structural difference when making contact with a vertical punch as compared to a horizontal punch? Especially when punching a heavy or standing bag?
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Capella
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rotating punches are stronger and have a bit more reach. But they telegraph like crazy because the shoulder comes up.

I prefer the vertical punch (we call it tate tsuki) for short punches in the in-fight, that are more sneaky than overly powerful. For example to the solar plexus. They deliver slightly less power, but since they are fast and harder to see coming, it is easier to be precise with them.

When I am coming in with a long punch and want to cover distance, I usually use the standrd rotated ones.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't noticed that there is a difference in reach between vertical and horizontal punches, especially straight punches. And if there is any, it seems to be negligible in my experience.

I would love to seem some kind of study on how much difference in power there is between a vertical punch and a horizontal (straight) punch.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Shindokan, as in many other MA, we've the reverse, vertical, and closed punches. Of course, we've no preference one over another; each can be effective, depending on each practitioner, and not by said punch.

Situations, as they vary, dictate to the practitioner as to what punch would be the most effective. However, that decision relies on the practitioners knowledge and experience as to exactly which punch to execute.

No matter the choice, proper usage and focus of ones hip movement are critical. The reverse punch has no more power than a vertical or closed punch because of how much the fist turns towards its target; proper hip movements are everything in their separate execution.

Whether it's close range or closing the gap, with no proper hip movement, the reverse, vertical, and close punch are no more than a push, and a push can't generate the necessary penetration at the target.

Imho!!



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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob, I agree that the use of the hips in the punching motion is paramount in power development, regardless of the orientation of the fist. When I teach punching mechanics, I teach that the power comes from the floor, and not from the arms. Everything starts with the drive from the floor, up through the hips, then into the shoulders and out through the arms.

Do you ever notice when teaching, Bob, especially early on in a practitioner's journey, a tendency to over-rotate the final position of the elbow in a horizontal punch? Do you notice this happen later on, even with more experienced practitioners, especially if the student gets to moving fast in sparring, any occurrences of the elbow rotation?
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Bob, I agree that the use of the hips in the punching motion is paramount in power development, regardless of the orientation of the fist. When I teach punching mechanics, I teach that the power comes from the floor, and not from the arms. Everything starts with the drive from the floor, up through the hips, then into the shoulders and out through the arms.

Do you ever notice when teaching, Bob, especially early on in a practitioner's journey, a tendency to over-rotate the final position of the elbow in a horizontal punch? Do you notice this happen later on, even with more experienced practitioners, especially if the student gets to moving fast in sparring, any occurrences of the elbow rotation?

Yes, I notice the over-rotation of the elbow at its final position, no matter the level of the student, including Dan holders. This is due to the fact that the student hasn't matured yet as a MAist; that takes time, and time takes diligence, from both the student as well as the CI.




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DWx
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I have played around with rotating the fist over, to the thumb down position, mostly on the bag, but have not done it much in sparring that I can recall. In self-defense, I think that can be quite useful in coming over the top of another hand attack to get to the opponent's head.

Of course, there are other variations of the punches, like the upset/uppercut style punches, which are mainly upside-down horizontal punches.

Danielle, do you notice any structural difference when making contact with a vertical punch as compared to a horizontal punch? Especially when punching a heavy or standing bag?

It could be that my technique with vertical isn't as polished but yes I tend to find myself making contact with 3 knuckles or the middle finger knuckle and ring finger knuckle rather that traditional forefist when vertical (thumb up). Especially if we talk about long range. Inverted vertical (thumb down) does tend to hit with the forefist for me. Thinking about it more though I think it depends on my intent with the punches. Short lead hand jabs I stay thumb up or rotate to horizontal. But if I'm committing with that hand then I'll rotate right over. My rear hand rotates thumb down for head shots but I probably stay horizontal if I drop for a body shot.
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DWx
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I haven't noticed that there is a difference in reach between vertical and horizontal punches, especially straight punches. And if there is any, it seems to be negligible in my experience.

I would love to seem some kind of study on how much difference in power there is between a vertical punch and a horizontal (straight) punch.

Admittedly I only skim read it right now but this is a pretty comprehensive break down of the two methods and suggested better power generation from the full twist

https://expertboxing.com/horizontal-punches-vs-vertical-punches

Interestingly they make a comment towards the end about vertical Vs horizontal in relation to your body (your torso) or in relation to the ground and I guess your opponents body. I guess you have to consider the punch from both a mechanics point of view for the puncher, but also how the fist is orientated to the opponent.

Now on a slightly related point... What about open hand strikes? Most would do them with the wrist in the horizontal position rather than vertical.
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