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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:07 am Post subject: What's Fair?!?!? |
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"You can't conceive, nor can I, the appalling strangeness of the mercy of God," says Graham Greene. He's speaking about fairness, and the lack thereof, quite pointedly, and without any ambiguity whatsoever.
The trials and tribulations of the MA are economically and willingly adopted by each practitioner, one way or another, whether they like it or not. We endure endlessly without the regards of its consequences in either the short or the long of it for each practitioners own personal choice.
If one can't discern from a paper clip to a roundhouse kick, then fairness is an alien process that individual. Governing Bodies, and I'm the top-dog in the SKKA, care about, for the most part, nothing beyond their own P&L Statements.
"Cry me a river"...that cliche is growing more and more, than it ever has before. Many, in my position within a Governing Body, would rather sweep the concerns of their own Student Body because it's not complacent with their P&L's bottom line.
Rank valuation...testing fees...testing cycles...curriculum's...rank structure...effectiveness or the lack thereof...and whatever else one can think of that's not agreed with...isn't fair whatsoever, nor was it ever. Fairness is like a juicy hamburger with everything, like it or throw it away. Either way, things must be dealt with in a proactive manner.
Fairness is a commodity that's better served cold!!
Since when is the MA based on fairness?? Where's the fairness in the MA?? What's fair and what's not fair?? Who's to dictate the fairness of the MA?? Who's to subscribe to the fairness doctrine of the MA??
edits: for spelling errors!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Last edited by sensei8 on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mushybees
Orange Belt
Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 199
Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
"You can't conceive, nor can I, the appalling strangeness of the mercy of God," says Graham Greene. He's speaking about fairness, and the lack thereof, quite pointedly, and without any ambiguity whatsoever.
The trials and tribulations of the MA are economically and willingly adopted by each practitioner, one way or another, whether the like it or not. We endure endlessly without the regards of its consequences in either the short or the long of it for each practitioners own personal choice.
If one can't discern from a paper clip to a roundhouse kick, then fairness is an alien process that individual. Governing Bodies, and I'm the top-dog in the SKKA, care about, for the most part, nothing beyond their own P&L Statements.
"Cry me a river"...that cliche is growing more and more, than it ever has before. Many, in my position within a Governing Body, would rather sweep the concerns of their own Student Body because it's not complacent with their P&L's bottom line.
Rank valuation...testing fees...testing cycles...curriculum's...rank structure...effectiveness or the lack thereof...and whatever else one can think of that's not agreed with...isn't fair whatsoever, nor was it ever. Fairness is like a juicy hamburger with everything, like it or throw it away. Either way, things must be dealt with in a proactive manner.
Fairness is a commodity that's better served cold!!
Since when is the MA based on fairness?? Where's the fairness in the MA?? What's fair and what's not fair?? Who's to dictate the fairness of the MA?? Who's to subscribe to the fairness doctrine of the MA??
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I never think of fairness in relation to martial arts. I train of my own volition so ultimately I decide what I will or won't endure.
I also don't compare myself to others, if the cookie crumbles in an advantageous way for someone I don't feel resentful at all.
What ego I have is well in check and the way I was raised has never allowed me to feel I'm entitled to anything in life.
Has something in your MA experience happened to prompt you to ask the question? |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:44 am Post subject: |
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I think the buffet travesty in martial arts, and this probably extends to all sports, is the fact that people especially kids and the parents of those young students, are brainwashed into believing everything their instructor says.
Things like the implication that you are training towards a black belt, eventually that becomes the goal, rather than whatever the original reasons for starting were.
Worse than that, the age old standard lies. Things like 'a strike to this point will almost always immobilise your attacker'. Lies that has kids believing they can defend themselves without effort when in fact we all know that if they ever get attacked by a committed attacker, their techniques will have no effect whatsoever because they've only ever trained against a fully compliant partner.
Perhaps worse than all of that, the notion of 'the attacker'. The attacker is mentioned a lot in martial arts. He is never defined. Instead we are left to form our own ideas as to how we will tell when someone is about to attack and therfore deserves a preemptive strike, or when someone just happens to be getting a bit closer to us than we'd like because their idea of personal space differs to our own.
All of this can easily be overcome though. All we have to do is take an occasional step back and evaluate objectively. |
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Higher Self
White Belt
Joined: 11 Mar 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Kansas
Styles: Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| I agree that instructors have a great responsibility to temper the expectations of their students. There Is a fine line between marketing and deceipt. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| mushybees wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
"You can't conceive, nor can I, the appalling strangeness of the mercy of God," says Graham Greene. He's speaking about fairness, and the lack thereof, quite pointedly, and without any ambiguity whatsoever.
The trials and tribulations of the MA are economically and willingly adopted by each practitioner, one way or another, whether the like it or not. We endure endlessly without the regards of its consequences in either the short or the long of it for each practitioners own personal choice.
If one can't discern from a paper clip to a roundhouse kick, then fairness is an alien process that individual. Governing Bodies, and I'm the top-dog in the SKKA, care about, for the most part, nothing beyond their own P&L Statements.
"Cry me a river"...that cliche is growing more and more, than it ever has before. Many, in my position within a Governing Body, would rather sweep the concerns of their own Student Body because it's not complacent with their P&L's bottom line.
Rank valuation...testing fees...testing cycles...curriculum's...rank structure...effectiveness or the lack thereof...and whatever else one can think of that's not agreed with...isn't fair whatsoever, nor was it ever. Fairness is like a juicy hamburger with everything, like it or throw it away. Either way, things must be dealt with in a proactive manner.
Fairness is a commodity that's better served cold!!
Since when is the MA based on fairness?? Where's the fairness in the MA?? What's fair and what's not fair?? Who's to dictate the fairness of the MA?? Who's to subscribe to the fairness doctrine of the MA??
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I never think of fairness in relation to martial arts. I train of my own volition so ultimately I decide what I will or won't endure.
I also don't compare myself to others, if the cookie crumbles in an advantageous way for someone I don't feel resentful at all.
What ego I have is well in check and the way I was raised has never allowed me to feel I'm entitled to anything in life.
Has something in your MA experience happened to prompt you to ask the question? |
To the bold type above...
Nope!! My MA journey is peachy keen!! Change is inevitable; I accept that wholeheartedly.
Having been in the MA, and in the capacities that I've been part of during these 53 years, one can imagine that I've seen, heard, and read from many practitioners from all forms of MA, and one of the things I see/hear/read a lot about, in and out of the Shindokan circle, is students complaining about something or another being not fair.
So, I just wanted to start a conversation, here at KF!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Higher Self wrote: |
| I agree that instructors have a great responsibility to temper the expectations of their students. There Is a fine line between marketing and deceipt. |
Solid post!!
Welcome to KF, Higher Self; glad that you're here!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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jasonis
White Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2018
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
I think the buffet travesty in martial arts, and this probably extends to all sports, is the fact that people especially kids and the parents of those young students, are brainwashed into believing everything their instructor says.
Things like the implication that you are training towards a black belt, eventually that becomes the goal, rather than whatever the original reasons for starting were.
Worse than that, the age old standard lies. Things like 'a strike to this point will almost always immobilise your attacker'. Lies that has kids believing they can defend themselves without effort when in fact we all know that if they ever get attacked by a committed attacker, their techniques will have no effect whatsoever because they've only ever trained against a fully compliant partner.
Perhaps worse than all of that, the notion of 'the attacker'. The attacker is mentioned a lot in martial arts. He is never defined. Instead we are left to form our own ideas as to how we will tell when someone is about to attack and therfore deserves a preemptive strike, or when someone just happens to be getting a bit closer to us than we'd like because their idea of personal space differs to our own.
All of this can easily be overcome though. All we have to do is take an occasional step back and evaluate objectively. |
Hi there, I haven't started MA yet but will go to a local shotokan club this week,so im no expert of course, I do however believe whilst we should place our full trust in a teacher (for anything, not exclusive to MA) you can't be so gullible to think anything, anytime will work there are so many circumstances where things just don't work so whilst I agree they shouldn't be teaching them "This will work every time" but rather "This is the most likely to work in this situation".
Another thing i'd like to discuss is the " their techniques will have no effect whatsoever because they've only ever trained against a fully compliant partner." part because I'd hate to find myself in a situation and rely on a false sense of security, in other words how would you utilise your MA in the best way possible, and know you were actually able to defend yourself?
One more thing, maybe this needs a thread but I see a lot of people say they don't train for the self defence it just comes along with the rest of it, my second priority after fitness is self defence... if anyone could shed some light on what i should focus on that would be great because i'd hate to start for all of the wrong reasons.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
I think the buffet travesty in martial arts, and this probably extends to all sports, is the fact that people especially kids and the parents of those young students, are brainwashed into believing everything their instructor says.
Things like the implication that you are training towards a black belt, eventually that becomes the goal, rather than whatever the original reasons for starting were.
Worse than that, the age old standard lies. Things like 'a strike to this point will almost always immobilize your attacker'. Lies that has kids believing they can defend themselves without effort when in fact we all know that if they ever get attacked by a committed attacker, their techniques will have no effect whatsoever because they've only ever trained against a fully compliant partner.
Perhaps worse than all of that, the notion of 'the attacker'. The attacker is mentioned a lot in martial arts. He is never defined. Instead we are left to form our own ideas as to how we will tell when someone is about to attack and therefore deserves a preemptive strike, or when someone just happens to be getting a bit closer to us than we'd like because their idea of personal space differs to our own.
All of this can easily be overcome though. All we have to do is take an occasional step back and evaluate objectively. |
MA training without practical serious resistance isn't effective at all. Be compliant whenever learning something new, then ramp it up, safely.
There's a huge difference from resistant training and abuse; CI's must do everything in their power to avoid abuse while at the same time, providing effective training!! Effective and practical resistant training safely should be the hallmark of that MA school; that's what their getting paid for!!
"How do I do that??" If that question has to be asked, then that individual shouldn't ever teach the MA.
Imho!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jasonis wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
I think the buffet travesty in martial arts, and this probably extends to all sports, is the fact that people especially kids and the parents of those young students, are brainwashed into believing everything their instructor says.
Things like the implication that you are training towards a black belt, eventually that becomes the goal, rather than whatever the original reasons for starting were.
Worse than that, the age old standard lies. Things like 'a strike to this point will almost always immobilise your attacker'. Lies that has kids believing they can defend themselves without effort when in fact we all know that if they ever get attacked by a committed attacker, their techniques will have no effect whatsoever because they've only ever trained against a fully compliant partner.
Perhaps worse than all of that, the notion of 'the attacker'. The attacker is mentioned a lot in martial arts. He is never defined. Instead we are left to form our own ideas as to how we will tell when someone is about to attack and therfore deserves a preemptive strike, or when someone just happens to be getting a bit closer to us than we'd like because their idea of personal space differs to our own.
All of this can easily be overcome though. All we have to do is take an occasional step back and evaluate objectively. |
Hi there, I haven't started MA yet but will go to a local shotokan club this week,so im no expert of course, I do however believe whilst we should place our full trust in a teacher (for anything, not exclusive to MA) you can't be so gullible to think anything, anytime will work there are so many circumstances where things just don't work so whilst I agree they shouldn't be teaching them "This will work every time" but rather "This is the most likely to work in this situation".
Another thing i'd like to discuss is the " their techniques will have no effect whatsoever because they've only ever trained against a fully compliant partner." part because I'd hate to find myself in a situation and rely on a false sense of security, in other words how would you utilise your MA in the best way possible, and know you were actually able to defend yourself?
One more thing, maybe this needs a thread but I see a lot of people say they don't train for the self defence it just comes along with the rest of it, my second priority after fitness is self defence... if anyone could shed some light on what i should focus on that would be great because i'd hate to start for all of the wrong reasons.
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I may have exaggerated slightly. It's quite rare to find a teacher that says something definitely works, but such teachers are out there. What us much more common is that techniques are not trained in such a way that they flow naturally one to another. For kids I think this is a problem. Adults can practice this flow more easily.
It's not that techniques won't work under pressure. The problem is that many students are happy to accept their grade as proof of ability. The belt you are given only proves that you can demonstrate ability against a very specific criteria applicable to a part of the curriculum. So having a black belt for example doesn't prove you can fight. It proves that you can demonstrate ability within the curriculum. It's up to the student to build on that skeleton framework and through controlled practice, make it useful. Many don't bother.
In ours, there are a few of us that want to develop our ability. Many others want to do what they need to to get the next belt. You can tell which is which when you partner up with them. When they put a technique on, and you resist a bit, if they get surprised and a bit annoyed when their technique fails, then they are probably after the next belt. If in the other hand they look a bit puzzled but happy, and ask why you think it didn't work, what could they have done slightly different to improve its effectiveness. Then we'll experiment with ever increasing resistance until we get it working against full resistance. Then practice some more.
My point is, as long as you stay honest to yourself, you'll be fine. You'll achieve whatever you set out to achieve. If that's the next belt, great. If it's ability to make it work, also great. Trust your teacher but don't fully suppress your inner skeptic. Ask yourself regularly if the goals you are working towards are really your goals. If they are, you'll excel. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| I may have exaggerated slightly. It's quite rare to find a teacher that says something definitely works, but such teachers are out there. What us much more common is that techniques are not trained in such a way that they flow naturally one to another. For kids I think this is a problem. Adults can practice this flow more easily. |
To the underlined. So you're saying that no technique/application works all the time on any attacker?
I guess I'm one of those rare teachers that dares to say this technique works. There are techniques/applications that work based on medical science and size, shape, etc. do not enter into the equation because we are medically made up the same anatomical way. Yes this person may be more muscular or fatter or skinnier or taller or shorter, but we all have the same anatomy.
So if I can execute a technique (at least in my experience) 100% of the time with the same results, based on your comment, I am still a liar because no technique works on everyone??
To the bold - I agree 100%.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
