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John G
Green Belt
Joined: 02 Jun 2002
Posts: 426
Location: Western Australia
Styles: ITF Taekwon-Do, Wing Chun
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 Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| Kirves wrote: |
| John G wrote: |
| Knees, forefist, back fist, side fist, under fist, long fist, middle knuckle fist, fore-knuckle fist, thumb knuckle fist, knife hand, reverse knife hand, upset fingertip, angle fingertip, flat fingertip, straight fingertip, thumb, forefinger, inner forearm, outer forearm, back forearm, under forearm, press finger, finger belly, elbows, finger pincers, bear hand, open fist, forehead, occiput, back hand, arc-hand, palm, thumb ridge, bow wrist, base of knife hand or press finger |
Not trying to be disrespectful, but how come I never see these in any TKD tournament, sparring or any other video that I watch? Am I just so darn unlucky in choosing TKD videos or what? I mean, yes they seem to be in the basic techniques, but never in the actual fighting, why is that? |
No disrespect taken,
Except for punches in ITF TKD all of them are disallowed in free sparring (tournament) and only a limited number of kicking techniques above the belt are allowed.
Free sparing is not meant to imitate real life situation and is only a training tool, think of it as training your legs on Large Punching Bag that moves and kicks back.
Some people train exclusively in free sparring techniques for sporting prowess (Olympics etc) I say more power to them.
I train no more than 16-20 hrs a year for the 3 or 4 state and club tournaments I enter each year, the rest of the time is dedicated to learning the martial art.
Respectfully,
_________________
John G Jarrett
III Dan, ITF Taekwon-Do |
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JohnnyS
Green Belt
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:47 am Post subject: |
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I've got a black belt in TKD, and trained for several years in Okinawan Goju-ryu as well as a few classes of Shotokan karate so I feel I'm well qualified for this question.
TKD is basically Shotokan karate but with more of an emphasis on kicking (obviously). The reason I say it's shotokan is because the class structure is quite similar, ie. warm-ups, basics, one-step and three step sparring,kata and free-sparring. The kata in the two arts is also practically identical.
While TKD and Shotokan are very similar, there is a big difference between TKD and an art like Okinawan Goju-ryu as TKD is generally taught at kicking range and Goju is a close-in art. While I have met and trained with many amazing martial artists and fighters from both styles (two of my TKD instructors were simply awesome fighters), I feel that Goju has the edge when it comes to fighting and self-defense. Here's a few reasons why:
Goju teaches close in fighting like headbutts, knees, elbows and sweeps. I know TKD teaches knees and elbows, but since you're never in that range you don't get a chance to do them in sparring.
Fights start at arms-length, which is perfect for Goju, but not so good for TKD.
Goju training is harder and geared more towards fighting, not just looking good or have nice snappy kicks.
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BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)
Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black Belt
TKD - Black Belt |
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Kirves
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1182
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| John G wrote: |
| Except for punches in ITF TKD all of them are disallowed in free sparring (tournament) and only a limited number of kicking techniques above the belt are allowed. |
Okay. I guessed that much.
| Quote: |
| Free sparing is not meant to imitate real life situation and is only a training tool |
Then, how do you train these techniques you listed so that you have them "wired in" and they work in real situations, if you don't apply them while sparring? |
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RedDragon
Yellow Belt
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Ontario, Canada
Styles: Goju Ryu Karate
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| JohnnyS wrote: |
I feel that Goju has the edge when it comes to fighting and self-defense. Here's a few reasons why:
Goju teaches close in fighting like headbutts, knees, elbows and sweeps. I know TKD teaches knees and elbows, but since you're never in that range you don't get a chance to do them in sparring.
Fights start at arms-length, which is perfect for Goju, but not so good for TKD.
Goju training is harder and geared more towards fighting, not just looking good or have nice snappy kicks. |
You have gained so much respect from me for the above comments.... and not just because I am biased  . You are one of the few people who is willing to see the pros and cons of the style that you are currently studying.
Now it's my turn... In traditional Japanese Goju, I feel that there isn't enough groundfighting incorporated into the style... I know that the fight is never supposed to go to the ground, but realistically, sometimes it does.
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Adam
Traditional Japanese Goju Ryu Karate
Mike Lasci's Northern Martial Arts Centre
My lifestyle determines my deathstyle |
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JohnnyS
Green Belt
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Just so you know, I no longer train in goju or TKD.
I moved on to shootfighting and BJJ, but I'm glad my first arts were those two. I've seen some really bad TKD, but the school where I trained in the 80's was a very hard school with an excellent instructor. We didn't jump around with our hands down - our instructor was a big guy who would literally knock your block off if your hands weren't up.
Training in Goju was a real eye-opener. The depth of the art is only something I feel can be rivalled by BJJ. The amount of streetfighting tricks I learnt was both incredible and invaluable - from how to headbutt and defend headbutts, to standing grappling and striking, to the mental toughening from "arm-pounding", etc. I've seen a lot of karate styles and other martial arts and I always say that for streetfighting and self-defense techniques, Goju is the best art I've seen. In fact, although I only do BJJ now, I still teach some of the things I learnt in Goju, especially if someone asks me about techniques relating to self-defense.
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BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)
Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black Belt
TKD - Black Belt |
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Ryu
Yellow Belt
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Posts: 30
Location: Meditation
Styles: Tae Kwon Do/Okinawan Weaponry
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Ditto on niel
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Ryan "Ryu" Somers
Blue Belt - ITF Tae Kwon Do
2 Years - Basic Hapkido |
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hagakure
White Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 2
Styles: Kobayashi Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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*Disclaimer: This is my personal philosophy about martial arts. It may not make any sense to you AT ALL. If I sound like a moron, you probably don't understand and it makes no sense to you. It makes sense to me, and I thought I 'd share it just incase it made any sense to anyone else.*
| taezee wrote: |
we come back around to two words i always use to these types of questions..INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVMENT...thus it is the man who makes his art and not vica versa...
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I couldn't agree with this statement more. Here's my two cents (my philosophical look, if you will). Generally speaking (I'm talking giant macroscopic view), the martial arts are meant to complement how one expresses himself or herself with his or her body. Techniques (in general) are meant to be natural movements and logical extensions of your energy. Some techniques through training are ingrained so thoroughly in one's being that they become natural movements and extensions of your energy; when you were a baby, walking was not a natural movement until you trained (actually, until you were trained by your parents) so that it became a part of you and your life. This is why I agree with taezee when he says "INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT...thus it is the man who makes his art and not vice versa..." What you personally achieve in your training is what makes the art natural to you and your energy and what makes it yours. The art does not make you.
TKD or Karate...either one all depends on how you train and how natural it is or becomes to you. It depends on whether or not either one complements how you express yourself with your body and if it is a logical extension of your energy. It's a decision no one can make but you by dipping your toe in the waters and seeing how it feels.
My fuzzy, nebulous, *...*ahem* I mean, two cents.
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Karate ni sente nashi... |
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$imoń
White Belt
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 18
Location: Manchester UK
Styles: Shotokan Karate, Judo, Jujutsu
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:15 am Post subject: |
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yea i have to agree with that, it all depends which art suits you. I train in shotokan myself and i know for a fact id have problems training in TKD because i prefer to use my hands and dont really have the flexibility to kick high effectivly, therefor a kicking orientated art such as TKD isnt that type of art that im best suited to. so it just depends on which art you can do more natrually and more effecively
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Shotokan Karate - brown belt 2nd kyu
Judo - Yellow belt
Jujustu - recently started, white belt |
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BASSAI-MAN
White Belt
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 16
Location: Monterrey Nuevo León MEX
Styles: shito-ryu , kyokushinkai, goju-ryu
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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the two are so differents because karate-do use punch , kicks , elbow , knee , and oriental weapons , and the tae kwon do is more sport like martial art (im speaking for the dojos that i saw) , i like both , but for example a 45 years old person that want to learn a martial art , i think that TKD is not the essential because i dont think that pearson can kick on the air two kicks or things like that , otherwise he can , use his elbow , knee and low kicks .
is my opinion , i love all martial arts
3r kyu kyokushinkai (yuwakai)
1kyu shito-ryu (shito-kai) |
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sk0t
Orange Belt
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 226
Location: Erie, PA
Styles: BJJ
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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You know...
I have been on this board for a little while now...and throughout all the boards, in the Korean Forums, and the General and everything and I hear people downing TKD because of the high kicks and how people cant kick and blah blah blah...
Could someone tell Jhoon Rhee that kicking high isnt a good thing...and that older people cant do it...
I know some 50 year olds who have started at 50, and can kick higher than some of the 20 year olds...
That doesnt make them any different or special...
Anyone can kick high, older people and the young alike...it takes training...
I would rather be flexible enough to kick you in the head, than only flexible enough to kick you in the knee...
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sk0t
"I shall not be judged by what style I know, but how I apply that style againsts yours..." |
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on the post.
