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The Pred
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385
Styles: Goju Ryu
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 Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Furthermore, if a kid starts at 4. Should that person have to wait till 12-14 years to be a full fledge black belt? If so, once that kid gets his black belt, should they have to wait as long to get their other dans? In comparison to a person who starts at 12 and gets their black belt in four years?
For example if a person started at 12,black belt at 16 or 18. Then 2 years for second,3 for the third, etc
Now if a person, started at 4, got his black belt at 16 due to age, should they also go thru the 2 years, for second, 3 years for third. Even though they already have more years experience by the time they're 12, its just the age holding them back. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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It depends on who you talk to. Age holds back a lot of things in life; driving age, drinking age, voting age, etc. I think at some point it does have to be a consideration. You also have to look at what other responsibilities you expect of black belts of various ranks. Do you expect a third dan to teach? If so, what age is appropriate for that? Other questions like this have to come into consideration, as well.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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wagnerk
Purple Belt
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 576
Location: UK
Styles: TSD, Karate & Kickboxing
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I used to agree with the junior black belt discussion, however now I'm more of the mindset of quality of the blackbelt and school.
I mean, just check out these examples (and there are plenty more on the internet)
Example of one association in this video (please excuse the guy talking) and they're adults. Now compare that to kids form video and sparring video...
I know that there are equal amounts of video showing the opposite (or even better examples), however it is down to the individual, there are mature kids and immature adults.
The same thing can be said about the time served principle, it normally would take a minimum of 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 years to gain shodan in a lot of martial arts. However are we to disregard people who have gained their black belts in a lot less time, people such as:
Ticky Donovan: 1st Dan under a year
Hirokazu Kanazawa: 1st Dan under 2 years
Chuck Norris: 1st Dan under 2 years
Paul Mendham: 1st Dan under 3 years
And there are many others
Like I said at the start, for me now a days, it's not the age or the time served... It's the skill, spirit and actions of the individual.
Some will agree, others won't, this is my 2 cents 
_________________
Tang Soo Do: 3rd Dan '18
Karate: 2nd Dan '04 |
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Lupin1
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1637
Location: Naples, FL
Styles: Isshinryu
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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To be fair, in the videos the guy posted of adults, it seemed as if they were doing a "go as fast as you can" exercise with the kata. We do them every so often at my school with similar results. I doubt they do their kata that fast all the time. I don't deny there are some horrible adult black belts out there, but the adults in his examples probably aren't as bad as those videos make them seem.
And the girl in the video is awesome, but that same girl seems to be used in all these "amazing karate kid" videos. She is an outlier, which is why so many videos of her make it into these debates as opposed to videos of her and 20 other children just as good.
Personally, I agree with child black belts to an extent. I don't think the vast majority of children under ten (other than significant outliers like the girl in the video) would be able to get to black belt. Even if they did start when they were 4, children learn differently than adults and their coordination/spatial reasoning/body awareness/etc is all still developing and as such 6 years of training as a 4-10 year old is much different than 6 years of training for an adult. Sort of like how a week long basketball camp with five-year-olds would leave you with different results than the same length camp with older children or adults. However, if a child started young, trains regularly, and is of average coordination, I can see achieving black belt by 13 or 14. |
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wagnerk
Purple Belt
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 576
Location: UK
Styles: TSD, Karate & Kickboxing
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Lupin1 wrote: |
To be fair, in the videos the guy posted of adults, it seemed as if they were doing a "go as fast as you can" exercise with the kata. We do them every so often at my school with similar results. ... |
I would have agreed with you, however there was a video on Youtube a while ago posting their full black belt exam (it's been since taken down, I've been trying to find if anyone has posted it without any luck) and it was not much better. There's nothing wrong with "go as fast as you can", but when it comes at the expense of the technique (or should I say the usability/effectiveness of the technique) then it gets questioned if they have the "maturity".
Saying that, a black belt means that you've met the requirements for that black belt exam for that club/association (as there are no national/international standards). Should we be brushing every person/association with our own standards? After all what may be acceptable to one, does not mean it's acceptable to another.
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Tang Soo Do: 3rd Dan '18
Karate: 2nd Dan '04 |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Yes...it is all about tenure and the like because that has already been established by the governing body, therefore, it must be strictly adhered to no matter if one agrees with it or not!!
I was part of the servitude of being a JBB for 5 long years; I hated it!! Nonetheless, I still succumb to its ideology, both as an CI and Kaicho of the SKKA, and that's because our By-Laws have been established by our Soke along time ago, and they've not been successively challenged as of yet!
While I am still seeking to abolish the JBB, I'm bound to enforce our By-Laws because it's the obligation that I swore to uphold!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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quinteros1963
Green Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2009
Posts: 394
Location: Spring, Texas
Styles: Okinawan Martial Arts (Goju Ryu & Shotokan)
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I know of several young Jr. black belts. Doesn't bother me at all. I have come across several 2nd and 3rd degrees though who we called master under the age of 18. To me that is a joke. But i understand the business aspect of it all.
_________________
The past is no more; the future is yet to come. Nothing exist except for the here and now. Our grand business is not to see what lies dimly at a distance, but to do what's clearly is clearly at hand...Lets continue to train! |
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Lupin1
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1637
Location: Naples, FL
Styles: Isshinryu
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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I like what we do-- have different requirements for junior black belt than for adult black belt. As I said in my earlier post, children, for the most part, learn at different rates than adults. Because their coordination, spatial reasoning, etc are still developing, they progress more slowly at first. They also usually need more frequent rewards to keep them motivated.
In order to do that, my instructor made a separate ranking system for kids and adults while still covering all the same material. Kids have more belts and get them more frequently-- especially right at the beginning (one kata per rank until junior black belt vs. 2 or 3 for adults). He also created a junior black belt which is the equivalent of adult green/brown belt. So, rather than the child having all the requirements for black belt met and simply being in a "holding pattern" until they're old enough for adult black belt, they're actually still working on the requirements for adult black belt and will receive it when they meet all the requirements, regardless of age.
Here's the correlation chart:
Kids ---> Adult
white ---> white
purple --> white
orange ---> white
yellow ---> yellow
blue ---> yellow
green ---> yellow
brown 1 ---> blue
brown 2 ---> blue
jr. black 1 ---> green/brown 3
jr. black 2 ---> brown 2
jr. black 3 ---> brown 1
adult black ---> black |
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chiliphil1
Orange Belt
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 225
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Lupin1 wrote: |
I like what we do-- have different requirements for junior black belt than for adult black belt. As I said in my earlier post, children, for the most part, learn at different rates than adults. Because their coordination, spatial reasoning, etc are still developing, they progress more slowly at first. They also usually need more frequent rewards to keep them motivated.
In order to do that, my instructor made a separate ranking system for kids and adults while still covering all the same material. Kids have more belts and get them more frequently-- especially right at the beginning (one kata per rank until junior black belt vs. 2 or 3 for adults). He also created a junior black belt which is the equivalent of adult green/brown belt. So, rather than the child having all the requirements for black belt met and simply being in a "holding pattern" until they're old enough for adult black belt, they're actually still working on the requirements for adult black belt and will receive it when they meet all the requirements, regardless of age.
Here's the correlation chart:
Kids ---> Adult
white ---> white
purple --> white
orange ---> white
yellow ---> yellow
blue ---> yellow
green ---> yellow
brown 1 ---> blue
brown 2 ---> blue
jr. black 1 ---> green/brown 3
jr. black 2 ---> brown 2
jr. black 3 ---> brown 1
adult black ---> black |
I REALLY like that system. Gives the motivation for kids to keep going and then once they are older they still have something to shoot for, excellent!
_________________
Black belt AFAF # 178
Tang Soo Do
8th Kyu
Matsubayashi ryu shorin ryu karate |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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I also agree that children and youths should have a seperate promotion system. The average child or youth 5-13 years old has a shorter attention span and concentration level. They need and depend on some kind of tangible reward and sign of progress more than adults in order to continue making an effort and stay motivated.
The best way to organize it is to devide the regular adult levels into smaller milestones. A three or four level(up to shodan) system is fine for adults but children and youth might easily loose motivation if they stay at the same level for six to twelve months. For example if the adult levels are 4, devide each into 3 for children and youth. Once they reach the right age just transfer to the equivalent regular level.
My actual school has only: white, green, blue, brown and black.
Earning the first level(green) takes between 6 and 8 months of training
The second(blue) takes 8 to 10 months, same for the third(brown)
Shodan takes a minimum of 1 year. |
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on the post.
