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Prototype
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Prototype wrote:
Is there any site that writes about the early kickboxing matches in America? I would like to know the level of the boxers who entered and the kickboxers.

There's these, and in no particular order, as to importance...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickboxing

http://archive.prokick.com/kickboxing/article/history-of-kickboxing/

http://www.angelfire.com/rings/kickboxing/kbhis.html

http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-articles/group-fitness/boxing-kickboxing

http://www.pka-kickboxing.com/pka-kickboxing-history.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Karate_Association

Hopefully, there's enough here to wet your whistle, or at least guide you towards what you're searching for.




Many thanks, but I did not find any information on when the rules where changed to 8 kicks requirment per round, or anything about pure boxers entering KB events, prompting the rule change.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
American Kickboxers don't learn sweeps?

Maybe that might be true, but I believe they already knew sweeps from their Sensei's. However, requirements stemmed from, for example, the PKA, whose rules and regulations only permit...boot to boot sweeps, and nothing else.



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Prototype
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did a little investigation. There were talks of a Benny Urquidez-Roberto Duran Kickboxing fight but it never materialized. Benny was reportedly up for it.

He also wanted to fight Sugar Ray Leonard. I think Benny stylistically kicks the living daylight out of Sugar Ray Leonard but Duran???
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Wado Heretic
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First; apologies for not getting back to this sooner. I have not been able to make time to compose a response.

Prototype wrote:
But you didn't adress the point I was making; A modern american kickboxer trains in the gym for american kickboxing rules only, nothing else. Yet you still think the american kickboxer has a disadvantage in his own rule set?


I addressed it in its original context; the 1970s, when American Kick-Boxing was a young sport. You had kick-boxers with a professional karate back ground, and then you had kick-boxers with an amateur boxing background. Under the early rule-set; with no kick requirements, with the restriction of kicks to above the belt, and rules against sweeps and throws; the defensive, and evasive tactics of boxing were effective, because they are as easily used against a high-kick as they are a punch above the belt. Similarly; this rule set reduced American Kick-boxing as a skill set to boxing with high-kicks.
I never made an either or either assertion, nor did I make the claim an American Kick-boxer is at a disadvantage by default. My assertion is that boxing skills are the predominant skill set of American Kick-Boxing, and thus the most effective boxer (which I used to mean the competitor with the better hand skills) is the one with an advantage.

Joe Lewis is a great example of this; because of his training back-ground, which involved training with Joe Orbillo (Notably after Lewis had retired from point-fighting, and had also become a training partner of Bruce Lee). To paraphrase a statement from the man himself, when he was asked whether he intended to try professional boxing; he claimed he was far from proficient enough, he just had a better boxing acumen than his early kick-boxing opponents.

Joe Lewis’ natural athleticism (He earned his blackbelt in 7 months, and won his first championship with only 22 months of training under his belt), his eclectic training approach inspired by Bruce Lee, and with his boxing acumen being ahead of the curve; meant that Lewis dominated during the first years of American Kick-Boxing. Simply because he was a better boxer than his opponents; not a good boxer, by his own admission, but better than his competitors. In some ways Lewis was the Ken Shamrock of his day. A strong, and surprisingly fast, heavyweight; with a knowledge base ahead of the other players, which meant he dominated while he was pioneering the sport. However, once the knowledge of the competition caught up; he crashed out from his top place in the pecking order.

Even in those early days, from 1975 onwards, the Kick-Boxers developed boxing skills because it was realised very early on that the point-fighting skills of Professional Karate did not carry over well into the rule set of American Kick-Boxing; especially in the boxing gloves. I cannot find any records of professional boxers trying their luck at Kick-Boxing; but that is because I cannot find the PKA records to be fair. I would not be surprised if Club-level professionals, or Amateur boxers, participated at the local levels; but cannot find evidence of Journeymen and above being anywhere close to a PKA event. It should also be noted that during the unregulated and unsanctioned days of Kick-Boxing; many bouts took place on boxing under-cards, blurring the lines a little.

Boxers being dominant in Kick-Boxing is, to be fair, not a reason for the minimum kick restriction I have encountered before. The reasoning I heard was that many early Kick-Boxing matches under American Kick-boxing rules simply looked like bad amateur boxing matches, and were not readily distinguishable as a sport from boxing. Hence, when trying to get the sport recognised, the minimum kick amount was introduced to ensure kicks were thrown during bouts to make them distinct from boxing matches.

Benny Urquidez was primarily a WKA fighter, although he did participate in a handful of PKA fights, and the WKA pioneered the low-kick as a weapon. If it was under WKA rules, it could have been an interesting and competitive bout.
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:
Joe Lewis’ natural athleticism (He earned his blackbelt in 7 months, and won his first championship with only 22 months of training under his belt), his eclectic training approach inspired by Bruce Lee, and with his boxing acumen being ahead of the curve; meant that Lewis dominated during the first years of American Kick-Boxing. Simply because he was a better boxer than his opponents; not a good boxer, by his own admission, but better than his competitors. In some ways Lewis was the Ken Shamrock of his day. A strong, and surprisingly fast, heavyweight; with a knowledge base ahead of the other players, which meant he dominated while he was pioneering the sport. However, once the knowledge of the competition caught up; he crashed out from his top place in the pecking order.



Interesting. Bill Wallace said the same thing about himself. I wonder why they were so critical of their boxing abilities. Both possessed fast muscle fibres and had natural athleticism. Joe Lewis did appear to have a weak jab though, and Teddy Atlas claims that while poor boxers can have good jabs, he has never seen a good boxer with a weak jab.
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Wado Heretic
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe they were just being honest; despite solid punching skills, at the same time they lacked a lot of the head-movement and foot-work. Joe Lewis used his formidable side-kick for distance control as much as he used a jab, and Bill Wallace used his exceptional kicking off his left foot to control distance. Joe Lewis did have a solid right hook, which he used more than once to catch those without boxing knowledge out.

If, in Joe Lewis' case, you look at any of the good heavyweights of the boxing world in the 70s, and then look at the boxing Lewis demonstrated; he was making a fair assessment of himself. After all, the 70s was probably the peak of heavyweight boxing. Should be remembered Lewis made that assessment of his boxing when asked if he would try professional boxing. I reckon Lewis and Wallace as pretty solid boxers at an amateur level; in that they both show some good defence and offence. They lacked the polish a professional needs.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:
I believe they were just being honest; despite solid punching skills, at the same time they lacked a lot of the head-movement and foot-work. Joe Lewis used his formidable side-kick for distance control as much as he used a jab, and Bill Wallace used his exceptional kicking off his left foot to control distance. Joe Lewis did have a solid right hook, which he used more than once to catch those without boxing knowledge out.

If, in Joe Lewis' case, you look at any of the good heavyweights of the boxing world in the 70s, and then look at the boxing Lewis demonstrated; he was making a fair assessment of himself. After all, the 70s was probably the peak of heavyweight boxing. Should be remembered Lewis made that assessment of his boxing when asked if he would try professional boxing. I reckon Lewis and Wallace as pretty solid boxers at an amateur level; in that they both show some good defence and offence. They lacked the polish a professional needs.


Yeah, Lewis hooks were good. His sub-par jab against Greg Baines gives his background away quickly IMO. The jab is not as important in Kickboxing so it makes sense that he didn't perfect it. In boxing, the jab is the most important shot. It tells you everyhing about a guys technical abilities. Similiar to the sidekick in TaeKwondo, which many instructors feel is the most indicative strike.
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Bob Sapp beats arguably the greatest Kickboxer of all time - Ernesto Hoost to a bloody pulp with wild swinging punching, I can only imagine what Mike Tyson would do to Hoost.

When the K1 fighters get pressured by boxing they seem to crumble. Look human. Same thing with Lebanner against Mark Hunt. Mark Hunt is not a boxer.

A shame we didn't have more fresh elite boxing blood in K1 to see how the kickboxers would parry their punching expertise.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy Dorsey used to sweep his opponents during his fullcontact fights under PKA, ISKA and WAKO rules. He did pretty well with it as he used to "fall" on the opponent with his ellbows and forearms. Took a lot of breath out of them.
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kicking
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I remember Troy Dorsey. He was a good sweeper. I think the PKA back in the 70ies removed sweeps from their rules to protect Bill Wallace from being swept. They were very protective of Superfoot.
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