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ninjanurse
KF VIP

Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 6154
Location: Upstate NY
Styles: TKD;Shotokan;JuJitsu;Tai Ji

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My current testing fee is $25 for all kyu/gup promotions. This covers belts, certificates, boards (all ranks break), and mat time. Black Belt testing fee is currently $135-again, covers belt, certificate, boards, and 2 days of mat time.

(The association I was with previously charged $45 for a certificate and a cheap/sometimes recycled belt.....Black Belt Fees were upwards of $400-same cheap certificates & belts.)


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Tae Kwon Do,Shotokan,Ju Jitsu,Modern Arnis
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16104
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mat time? For a testing cycle?? Is the testing cycle conducted In-House?? Is the approved Testing Cycle mandatory??

Governing bodies sure are big in their britches, imho!! Charging whatever they want to, and the poor student is saddled with the high costs, in which the student is left with no further recourse. No fees, then you get no bag of MA goodies!! Governing bodies and the like can hold tangible items hostage, but the acquired knowledge/experience belongs to the student!!

Tangible things shouldn't cost an arm and a leg!! Blood CAN be gotten from a turnip, after all.



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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... been a while!



So lets jump in ... both feet!

Skimming over the thread I see comments like belt factory, money machine, a personal fav ... electrical tape (do like that one for so may reasons) over inflated organisations ... nah! lets say it for what it is ...egos!

I have absolutely no issue with any of these comments! Each and everyone is correct!

Gradings are held regularly, people are presented with bills to pay, the money does go to one coffer or another!

How else does a school or organisation operate if not for free...money has to come from somewhere!!

The student, no matter the age has been taught and that teaching has a price, and the test needs to taken to prove the education was well worth the effort!

.... now step back a little, its a bit strong to say money machine, belt factory ... maybe!

"We" grade as often as we need to to reach the rank ....hmmm we grade as often as we want to ..... hmmm!

"we grade" because "we" need to see progress, its human nature, we test ourselves as much as we test others in competition, to see how well we are doing!

Gradings are held to fit that need, or at least that is how they should be done, the cost/price value is just that a value to the people involved, to cheap, then to fail to pass is mealy a word... to expensive and the pass to fail is a massive impact on the people involved,both good and bad vibes!
(not to forget the profit line!)

To me the cost is an amount that if set correctly presents a step in a persons life with financial value that is large enough to warrant more thought then expected but not require a second mortgage to afford!

If the cost has you say to your self "am i good enough?" and you cannot say yes, honestly, then you are not ready, wait until the next grading and ask yourself again!

If you answer "honestly" with an affirm then go ahead good luck, and when you pass, well done you!
There is pride in the action, worth in the passing and a clear concious for undertaking the activity in the first place, its well deserved enjoy it you have earned it!

Its up to the examiner, to say to you, yes or pass at the end of the day, its up to you to commit and have the confidence to stand up and do it!
Its you teachers job to work with you and get you ready, and be honest with you and say yes you can do it, I believe in you!
...BUT only you can be 100% sure you are ready and can do it...be honest with yourself!

We do not have to grade because the grading is here, we do not have to grade because our friend has decided to step up we grade because we are ready!

Belt factory money making, yes these are things that happen,... aka: McDojo ... but not all are factory or machines some do set up to have flexibility to grant all the chance to stand up and take the test!
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Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16104
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkmoon wrote:
... been a while!



So lets jump in ... both feet!

Skimming over the thread I see comments like belt factory, money machine, a personal fav ... electrical tape (do like that one for so may reasons) over inflated organisations ... nah! lets say it for what it is ...egos!

I have absolutely no issue with any of these comments! Each and everyone is correct!

Gradings are held regularly, people are presented with bills to pay, the money does go to one coffer or another!

How else does a school or organisation operate if not for free...money has to come from somewhere!!

The student, no matter the age has been taught and that teaching has a price, and the test needs to taken to prove the education was well worth the effort!

.... now step back a little, its a bit strong to say money machine, belt factory ... maybe!

"We" grade as often as we need to to reach the rank ....hmmm we grade as often as we want to ..... hmmm!

"we grade" because "we" need to see progress, its human nature, we test ourselves as much as we test others in competition, to see how well we are doing!

Gradings are held to fit that need, or at least that is how they should be done, the cost/price value is just that a value to the people involved, to cheap, then to fail to pass is mealy a word... to expensive and the pass to fail is a massive impact on the people involved,both good and bad vibes!
(not to forget the profit line!)

To me the cost is an amount that if set correctly presents a step in a persons life with financial value that is large enough to warrant more thought then expected but not require a second mortgage to afford!

If the cost has you say to your self "am i good enough?" and you cannot say yes, honestly, then you are not ready, wait until the next grading and ask yourself again!

If you answer "honestly" with an affirm then go ahead good luck, and when you pass, well done you!
There is pride in the action, worth in the passing and a clear concious for undertaking the activity in the first place, its well deserved enjoy it you have earned it!

Its up to the examiner, to say to you, yes or pass at the end of the day, its up to you to commit and have the confidence to stand up and do it!
Its you teachers job to work with you and get you ready, and be honest with you and say yes you can do it, I believe in you!
...BUT only you can be 100% sure you are ready and can do it...be honest with yourself!

We do not have to grade because the grading is here, we do not have to grade because our friend has decided to step up we grade because we are ready!

Belt factory money making, yes these are things that happen,... aka: McDojo ... but not all are factory or machines some do set up to have flexibility to grant all the chance to stand up and take the test!

Solid post!!

Missed you, Hawkmoon; glad to see you again!!



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el-peligroso
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Oct 2016
Posts: 34
Location: YYZ
Styles: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Jujutsu, Kickboxing, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a belt factory to me.

Do yourself a favour and just go buy yourself a black belt for $10. It will be a lot cheaper.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the school owner has expenses and has to pay bills and make a living and I am fine with that. However I fall back on my Shinshii's statements to all of his instructors when it comes to testing... "you should not have to pay for something you earned".
In most schools today a student is charged for classes, personal instruction, seminar's, books (that are required for the student to progress), video's/dvd's, uniforms, etc. etc. etc.
Why then would you charge a student for something that they have paid for over and over? They paid for the instruction. They should not have to pay for something they have already earned.
Most good instructors already know who is ready to be tested and know that they have already passed based on their performance and progression in class. Why then if not to just gouge and squeeze a little more money from the student, would anyone charge them for what they have already earned?
Fine make them pay for their belt, not like it's expensive with quantity discounts schools get, especially large schools. But why would anyone charge them just to show up and test for something that, again, a good instructor already knows that they have passed?
I could almost see it if it is a small school and less students to pay the rent, electric, water, and instructors wages but the funny thing is this practice is most prevalent in large schools with a multitude of students.
Ego... maybe. Personally I think the better word is greed.
For Yudansha ranks up to Nidan I can see a small fee to cover the instructor's time if your tests last as long as ours. However $400+? For what? Considering that most modern school's Yudansha tests take less than 4 hours that is $100 an hour times the number of students testing. Wow what a bargain for the instructor. Really raking in the profits. Sarcasm!!!!
If you are the instructor and do not know that your student is at this level and you allow them to test then shame on you. Is it just in case the student doesn't pass? Maybe it's to punish the student for trying. No that can not be it because the instructor decides when a student is ready to be tested for Yudansha grading and not the student.
I don't get it. I have been teaching for over 30 years and have yet to get why any student would pay for something they have already paid for in money, blood, sweat and tears.
To me it's just not ethical. As I see it this is a proud moment for both the student and the instructor. It is just belittle to a mere business transaction by charging the student to be tested.
Obviously I realize that this is not a popular opinion but it's my opinion.
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jaypo
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 520

Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had my reservations about my club when I joined. I thought the tests were held too frequently. But as I got more involved with the inner workings, I started to understand why. My old school (very traditional) would hold tests on certain set dates, and you either tested or not. My current club tests when needed. My old school would allow everyone the chance to test and they knew the date. My current school selects who will test and when. The reasoning in my current club is that we have such an inflow of new students (and sometimes, departures) every day, that not everyone is in the same time frame for advancement. So we may hold a test for 10 people this month and hold another test next month, but 10 others may test there. We test people according to their progress, and if they're not ready to test, they're not invited.

Now, the ranking system is another thing I had an issue with. But I understand it now. We offer traditional color belts for kyudan ranks- white, yellow, orange, etc. We also offer stripe ranks for students. We call it "advanced yellow, etc", but in reality, it's giving the students motivation to progress and not get impatient. I didn't understand at first because I love MA and would stay training without any formal advancement. But I've seen far too many kids AND parents leave the school if they did not test frequently. So now, they're given the opportunity to advance based on their knowledge. Giving them the opportunity to test keeps them motivated and allows them to show what they have learned even if it isn't enough to get them to the next kyu rank. (This is mainly for the younger students- 10 years of age and less). There have only been 2 students under 13 years of age that have earned black belts in our system, and I can tell you that they both deserved it! They trained 3 times as many hours as they would at any other school, and even though they lacked the physical prowess of the older students, there weren't many that had the knowledge that these 2 possessed.

As far as the money factor, we charge a fee for every test, but the fee covers a trophy, a new belt, and about an hour worth of pay for the instructor. And being the "CFO" of the club, I can tell you that this barely covers the bills! He doesn't do it for the money at all. I know this because he charges less than half than the next cheapest school in our area, and about 25% of the normal rate of other schools around here.
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