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fujau
Yellow Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 69
Location: my foot your face
Styles: lau gar kuin, shen gung
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brickshooter
Green Belt
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 443
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 Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a Karate guy with little understanding of Kung Fu.
In Karate, there's a lot of hip rotation. Some Karate schools such as Shotokan also promotes extreme weight transfer (foward). They emphasize the M part of F = MxA. Other schools like Shito-Ryu promotes far more hip rotation than weight transfer. They exmpasize the A part of F = MxA.
My question is how do one generate power in Kung Fu? I don't see the hip rotation. And I don't see any weight transfer. I see the same theory practice in Kenpo Karate. But again, I never figured out how those styles generate force.
What am I not seeing?
BTW, the Karate blast uses weight transfer to generate power. I can't think of a school that promotes its use while standing still. It explains why the technique looks like one is running forward while punching. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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I've never liked the idea of "walking and punching." Outside of training, I don't see it as practical. However, it is good for training, and learning how to transfer that power without stepping is very useful.
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gioco
White Belt
Joined: 09 Oct 2010
Posts: 3
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| brickshooter wrote: |
I'm a Karate guy with little understanding of Kung Fu.
In Karate, there's a lot of hip rotation. Some Karate schools such as Shotokan also promotes extreme weight transfer (foward). They emphasize the M part of F = MxA. Other schools like Shito-Ryu promotes far more hip rotation than weight transfer. They exmpasize the A part of F = MxA.
My question is how do one generate power in Kung Fu? I don't see the hip rotation. And I don't see any weight transfer. I see the same theory practice in Kenpo Karate. But again, I never figured out how those styles generate force.
What am I not seeing?
BTW, the Karate blast uses weight transfer to generate power. I can't think of a school that promotes its use while standing still. It explains why the technique looks like one is running forward while punching. |
I think that we can agree that the secret to power is in the hips. However, in watching the link provided in the OP, Bruce's use of hips are none existent across the board.
Here's what I see.
The Force of his punching power does come from his mass times his acceleration. If I'm correct in what I've learned from training/exchanging with JKD practitioners, they [JKD practitioners] don't ever chamber or retract their hands and feet. For them to chamber, it means that they've no power to start with on one or both sides. I'm not implying that JKD practitioners don't value the properties of the hips. No!
The force I present comes from how fast I can strike out to my target with my soup bone for hands and feet. Bruce could generate a lot of speed in the shortest distance with his hands/feet without having to chamber and/or reposition them. Having said that, I also value the properties of a chamber and/or reposition, when they're called for. The power of the chamber and/or the reposition is evident yesterday as well as today and well be so tomorrow. I'm a proponent of both schools!
I'm a karateka, but I view Oi-Zuki [Lunge Punch] as a very weak punch that lives as a telegraphed tool, although it does have some positive characteristics about it. Still, your walking and executing a punch from a chambered position. Weight transfer has merits, but to me, in its totality, it's a very weak punch because of its wasted motion and energy. Oi-Zuki is a type of punch that takes so much space and time to execute.
I believe that JKD power comes from their entire body; a body that's in concert with itself. Providing that body mechanics aren't just ramblings of scientists, body mechanics have everything to do with where JKD power comes from. Therefore, it's not necessary to draw back the arm before delivery of a strike. This negates the necessity to chamber/retract the fist before delivering a punch. Without the chamber, or any preparatory retraction of the hand, it is much harder for an opponent to see a strike coming! MAists should be able to strike from wherever their tool, hands and/or feet, may happen to be without repositioning.
JKD's center line theory, an unorthodox manner that seems to embody the essence of JKD power without wasted motion/energy, as well as protecting themselves; albeit, very effective and very powerful.
Without turning this post into a lecture of a type, I'd be amiss to not encourage one to carefully study in depth any and all of JKD theories & principles for a more understanding of...where's the hips in JKD. Study theories/principles of JKD, for example: Water Principle, Whip Principle, Water and Whip Principle, Non-Intention, Four Corner Theory, Theory of Facing, Hammer Principle, Immovable Elbow Theory, Long Weapon to Nearest Target, and Power Side Theory.
I'm not a paid spokesman for JKD, I'm a karateka that sees the value of its totality across the board, and in applying its simplicity to my betterment as a MAist. However, I don't treat JKD P&T's, or any style of the MA, as part of the MA holy grail, they're nothing more than tools to wield at my discretion, just as I would for anything that I deem valuable from the vastly differing styles of the MA.
Where's the hip? It's there in JKD when one needs it, not until then.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think hand retraction is necessary to get hip into a move. I like to punch from more of a Boxing stance, but still involve my hips. I also feel that the lunge punch is a difficult technique to apply in a useful manner, aa it telegraphs big time, and takes considerable time and space to use.
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difflock
White Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Posts: 8
Location: South Africa
Styles: karate
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Bruce lee is atmired as gr8 fighting and self defence he is really a role model for young children who does martial art.gr8 wing chun no doubt.
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| brickshooter wrote: |
My question is how do one generate power in Kung Fu? I don't see the hip rotation. And I don't see any weight transfer. I see the same theory practice in Kenpo Karate. But again, I never figured out how those styles generate force.
What am I not seeing? |
I'm just now seeing this. I recall hearing these theories explained by a taiji instructor and by another gungfu stylist that I know. I'm not a taiji guy or a gungfu stylist, I just talk to some of them.
Basically, a lot of gungfu styles appear to generate power by building a structural line between the rear foot and the striking tool at the moment of impact, and snapping it into place inside of the target. I'm not sure how better to explain that.. It explains a lot of the foot stamping and "heel must be down!" that you see in the Chinese arts, as they don't want any elasticity between ground and target when the strike happens; they want the structure to solidify in an extremely fast and irresistable fashion inside of the target, as opposed to focusing on acceleration/mass or the like.
I do understand the confusion, though. I mean, it seems like every root art, and there's usually a correlation with "country of origin" here, has a core power generation method that they use, and everything else seems to build from that point.
regarding Bruce Lee himself, I still say that he is over-hyped. yes, he was a very talented practitioner. Yes, his ideas were important to the development of American martial art theory; they are distinctly American in tone. This isn't always good, by the way. I would have loved to met the man, and I would have loved to learn from him. However, I don't feel that he was talented beyond that of other contemporaries who did not manage to turn up on the silver screen. If, say, Lateef Crowder were to suddenly become a movie megastar and revitalize the action movie genre, i'm sure there would be some who claimed he was a fake, and others who would claim that he was a master beyond all other masters, an ascended arch-master of his art. The guy is pretty darned talented. It'd be pretty cool to play the guy. But he's just some guy, you know?
No, Lee's ideas were not unique or original; furthermore, I do not believe that Lee would necessarily approve of the ways his ideas have been used in all cases.
JKD in particular is an idea that I believe contained massive seeds to it's own self-destruction, because it is interpreted so heavily as a negative definition. Negatively defined things are defined by what they are not, which unfortunately does not help in finding what it is for. Tap dancing while wielding a dead fish can be seen as a clear interpretation of JKD principles.
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Avalin
White Belt
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
Posts: 1
Location: 中国
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Buddha Hat
White Belt
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Basically, a lot of gungfu styles appear to generate power by building a structural line between the rear foot and the striking tool at the moment of impact, and snapping it into place inside of the target. I'm not sure how better to explain that.. It explains a lot of the foot stamping and "heel must be down!" that you see in the Chinese arts, as they don't want any elasticity between ground and target when the strike happens; they want the structure to solidify in an extremely fast and irresistable fashion inside of the target, as opposed to focusing on acceleration/mass or the like. |
Spot on there, Justice. I'm a Wing Chun man myself, and it is indeed about structure. Also, everything should be done with either a turn or a step. I agree about Bruce Lee too... |
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on the post.
