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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Students can be stripped of rank in our school. Offenses would include:

*Drug or alcohol use while in class (coming drunk or high)
*Severe misconduct in class
*Misuse of the martial arts inside or outside class (picking fights, abuse, etc)
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1710

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demotion is quite rare from personal experience. It is much less effective as a consequence for reprehensible behaviour than immediate and complete expulsion. There are, unfortunately certain people with serious moral, psychological or character flaws who should never ever be taught martial arts.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, those usually get weeded out before they even test at our school.
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know of any demotions of rank that Kukkiwon has ordered, but I recall Illinois state Taekwondo association kicking people out and barring them from being a part of the organization in any way. The reasoning was justified. Two cases I'm aware of were both because they'd been found guilty in the courts of molesting children. I'm sure Kukkiwon would probably agree to strip folks like this if they were aware of it. But, I think stories like this would take up a lot of their time also.

The WTF (sport body of Kukkiwon) did expel a fighter from Cuba for intentionally kicking a referee during a match at the Olympics, before the guy left the arena. I don't know if Kukkiwon ever stripped him of his rank.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't personally agree with demotions. If they have done something heinous enough to warrant a demotion, IMHO then they deserve to be shown the door.

For one a demotion of rank is perception alone. The student still has the skills and knowledge so the only thing this accomplishes is taking away one belt and replacing it with another. Furthermore the student remains in class (if they do not quit) and at some point I am sure that the instructor will elevate them back up. Thus this is not really a punishment.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2350
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
I don't personally agree with demotions. If they have done something heinous enough to warrant a demotion, IMHO then they deserve to be shown the door.

For one a demotion of rank is perception alone. The student still has the skills and knowledge so the only thing this accomplishes is taking away one belt and replacing it with another. Furthermore the student remains in class (if they do not quit) and at some point I am sure that the instructor will elevate them back up. Thus this is not really a punishment.


I agree with this pretty much completely.

However, I guess there’s a time and place for everything. I see someone being stripped of a title and the responsibilities that come with it. It would be an odd situation where someone isn’t fulfilling their duties but hasn’t done something outright wrong enough to warrant dismissal. Perhaps someone in a traditional and official Senpai role who’s supposed to be a leader and/or role model, yet he/she isn’t effective in that role or is no longer fulfilling the obligations. Or a senior instructor who’s genuinely continually struggling to teach effectively. Or a “board member” who’s vision is clearly off line with the organization’s. Those don’t constitute dismissal IMO, but if they’re not up to the standards, they shouldn’t have that title and role. A demotion, but not a rank demotion.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14301
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Shindokan isn't everyone's cup of tea because we will, and we have "demoted" rank before for cause; no ambiguity with us. However, to do so, something has to have been very serious, and the judgement must be in line with our By-Laws, and it must have a unanimous vote!!




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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
I don't personally agree with demotions. If they have done something heinous enough to warrant a demotion, IMHO then they deserve to be shown the door.

For one a demotion of rank is perception alone. The student still has the skills and knowledge so the only thing this accomplishes is taking away one belt and replacing it with another. Furthermore the student remains in class (if they do not quit) and at some point I am sure that the instructor will elevate them back up. Thus this is not really a punishment.


I agree with this pretty much completely.

However, I guess there’s a time and place for everything. I see someone being stripped of a title and the responsibilities that come with it. It would be an odd situation where someone isn’t fulfilling their duties but hasn’t done something outright wrong enough to warrant dismissal. Perhaps someone in a traditional and official Senpai role who’s supposed to be a leader and/or role model, yet he/she isn’t effective in that role or is no longer fulfilling the obligations. Or a senior instructor who’s genuinely continually struggling to teach effectively. Or a “board member” who’s vision is clearly off line with the organization’s. Those don’t constitute dismissal IMO, but if they’re not up to the standards, they shouldn’t have that title and role. A demotion, but not a rank demotion.


Agree 100%. Titles are political in most cases and entail administrative roles. As in a job role if you are not performing your duties you could be demoted in position within the company vs. being fired. So yes I'll go along with this line of reasoning 100%. It makes perfect sense.

But again I do not agree with demotion of grade as it has, in my mind, already been earned and as such can not be taken away. That is IF it was earned.

If the school is a belt factory and one is demoted I'm not sure that constitutes as a punishment due to the fact that they did not earn the grade to begin with. On the other hand if said student walks into another school wearing an undeserved grade then I would support demotion 100% and under this specific circumstance I wouldn't hesitate to demote a student of their grade. Having said that if you join my class you start as a Hachikyu regardless of your previous grade so it's not really an issue. So I'm back to not agreeing with demotions.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14301
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Shindokan, rank can be demoted, however, Shogo titles, Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi, can not be because they are bestowed, life long, and not earned via any Testing Cycle!!



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27678
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
I don't personally agree with demotions. If they have done something heinous enough to warrant a demotion, IMHO then they deserve to be shown the door.

For one a demotion of rank is perception alone. The student still has the skills and knowledge so the only thing this accomplishes is taking away one belt and replacing it with another. Furthermore the student remains in class (if they do not quit) and at some point I am sure that the instructor will elevate them back up. Thus this is not really a punishment.


I agree. Also, I have an issue with demotion if it involves the physical taking of a belt. The student earned that belt (and likely paid for it), so, to me, taking that away from someone is pretty much theft. If it is something that I felt that I absolutely had to do, I would take to the Grandmaster at the head school about just having the demotion made in the records of the HQ school.
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