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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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 Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Students can be stripped of rank in our school. Offenses would include:
*Drug or alcohol use while in class (coming drunk or high)
*Severe misconduct in class
*Misuse of the martial arts inside or outside class (picking fights, abuse, etc)
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Demotion is quite rare from personal experience. It is much less effective as a consequence for reprehensible behaviour than immediate and complete expulsion. There are, unfortunately certain people with serious moral, psychological or character flaws who should never ever be taught martial arts. |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, those usually get weeded out before they even test at our school.
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: |
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I don't know of any demotions of rank that Kukkiwon has ordered, but I recall Illinois state Taekwondo association kicking people out and barring them from being a part of the organization in any way. The reasoning was justified. Two cases I'm aware of were both because they'd been found guilty in the courts of molesting children. I'm sure Kukkiwon would probably agree to strip folks like this if they were aware of it. But, I think stories like this would take up a lot of their time also.
The WTF (sport body of Kukkiwon) did expel a fighter from Cuba for intentionally kicking a referee during a match at the Olympics, before the guy left the arena. I don't know if Kukkiwon ever stripped him of his rank.
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Being a good fighter is One thing. Being a good person is Everything. Kevin "Superkick" McClinton |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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I don't personally agree with demotions. If they have done something heinous enough to warrant a demotion, IMHO then they deserve to be shown the door.
For one a demotion of rank is perception alone. The student still has the skills and knowledge so the only thing this accomplishes is taking away one belt and replacing it with another. Furthermore the student remains in class (if they do not quit) and at some point I am sure that the instructor will elevate them back up. Thus this is not really a punishment.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
I don't personally agree with demotions. If they have done something heinous enough to warrant a demotion, IMHO then they deserve to be shown the door.
For one a demotion of rank is perception alone. The student still has the skills and knowledge so the only thing this accomplishes is taking away one belt and replacing it with another. Furthermore the student remains in class (if they do not quit) and at some point I am sure that the instructor will elevate them back up. Thus this is not really a punishment. |
I agree with this pretty much completely.
However, I guess there’s a time and place for everything. I see someone being stripped of a title and the responsibilities that come with it. It would be an odd situation where someone isn’t fulfilling their duties but hasn’t done something outright wrong enough to warrant dismissal. Perhaps someone in a traditional and official Senpai role who’s supposed to be a leader and/or role model, yet he/she isn’t effective in that role or is no longer fulfilling the obligations. Or a senior instructor who’s genuinely continually struggling to teach effectively. Or a “board member” who’s vision is clearly off line with the organization’s. Those don’t constitute dismissal IMO, but if they’re not up to the standards, they shouldn’t have that title and role. A demotion, but not a rank demotion. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Shindokan isn't everyone's cup of tea because we will, and we have "demoted" rank before for cause; no ambiguity with us. However, to do so, something has to have been very serious, and the judgement must be in line with our By-Laws, and it must have a unanimous vote!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
I don't personally agree with demotions. If they have done something heinous enough to warrant a demotion, IMHO then they deserve to be shown the door.
For one a demotion of rank is perception alone. The student still has the skills and knowledge so the only thing this accomplishes is taking away one belt and replacing it with another. Furthermore the student remains in class (if they do not quit) and at some point I am sure that the instructor will elevate them back up. Thus this is not really a punishment. |
I agree with this pretty much completely.
However, I guess there’s a time and place for everything. I see someone being stripped of a title and the responsibilities that come with it. It would be an odd situation where someone isn’t fulfilling their duties but hasn’t done something outright wrong enough to warrant dismissal. Perhaps someone in a traditional and official Senpai role who’s supposed to be a leader and/or role model, yet he/she isn’t effective in that role or is no longer fulfilling the obligations. Or a senior instructor who’s genuinely continually struggling to teach effectively. Or a “board member” who’s vision is clearly off line with the organization’s. Those don’t constitute dismissal IMO, but if they’re not up to the standards, they shouldn’t have that title and role. A demotion, but not a rank demotion. |
Agree 100%. Titles are political in most cases and entail administrative roles. As in a job role if you are not performing your duties you could be demoted in position within the company vs. being fired. So yes I'll go along with this line of reasoning 100%. It makes perfect sense.
But again I do not agree with demotion of grade as it has, in my mind, already been earned and as such can not be taken away. That is IF it was earned.
If the school is a belt factory and one is demoted I'm not sure that constitutes as a punishment due to the fact that they did not earn the grade to begin with. On the other hand if said student walks into another school wearing an undeserved grade then I would support demotion 100% and under this specific circumstance I wouldn't hesitate to demote a student of their grade. Having said that if you join my class you start as a Hachikyu regardless of your previous grade so it's not really an issue. So I'm back to not agreeing with demotions. 
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:39 am Post subject: |
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In Shindokan, rank can be demoted, however, Shogo titles, Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi, can not be because they are bestowed, life long, and not earned via any Testing Cycle!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
I don't personally agree with demotions. If they have done something heinous enough to warrant a demotion, IMHO then they deserve to be shown the door.
For one a demotion of rank is perception alone. The student still has the skills and knowledge so the only thing this accomplishes is taking away one belt and replacing it with another. Furthermore the student remains in class (if they do not quit) and at some point I am sure that the instructor will elevate them back up. Thus this is not really a punishment. |
I agree. Also, I have an issue with demotion if it involves the physical taking of a belt. The student earned that belt (and likely paid for it), so, to me, taking that away from someone is pretty much theft. If it is something that I felt that I absolutely had to do, I would take to the Grandmaster at the head school about just having the demotion made in the records of the HQ school.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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on the post.
