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DarthPenguin
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 824
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:
KumiteDutchie wrote:
As a Shotokan nut, I'd say Ten No Kata, the Taikyoku series, and Heian Shodan. From Heian Nidan onward the techniques are a bit beyond basic kihon imo.


So here's what I've seen. My dojo is ISKF, and we don't do the Taikyokus. We start immediately with Heian Shodan. My understanding is that this is also the case with SKIF, and JKA only has Taikyoku Shodan.

The Shorin-ryu dojo that I left has five Taikyokus (I hear some places have more), though, my understanding is that beyond Nidan, the Taikyoku katas are totally different between associations.

Personally? I think Taikyokus are a waste. Everything in the Taikyoku series is captured in the Pinan/Heian series.

With the exception of the hammer fist (which is easy to learn) all moves in Heian Shodan are part of white belt kihon in Shotokan, so I don't see the point in Taikyokus.


For myself, in our shotokan classes we do Kihon Kata first (i think it is one of the Taikyoku ones but not 100% on that). I think it is quite useful actually as it is very straightforward and gets the students used to learning a sequence of moves and moving in a particular manner.

Then when they learn Heian Shodan they are taught it as being similar with differences of X. This i think is also useful as when they progress through the Heian's they get used to their being similarities and it helps it all join together in their mind. It also keeps it 'neat' with a new kata being required at every grading until 2nd kyu when you keep doing Bassai Dai with one of the Heian's.

Personally it is probably quite hard to come up with an 'overall' karate kihon kata list due to the different lineages and origins. Might be possible to do it for those from a Naha-te origin and a separate list for those of a Shuri-te origin.

I quite like it that there isn't one single list otherwise (in my opinion) it would sort of devalue all of the different styles. If you learnt the same katas etc. at each then all you would really be learning is a different means of application or ruleset at each one. With everything staying different it is distinct. I like the fact that if i was to go to Shorin-Rtu; Goju-ryu; Uechi-Ryu etc. i would be learning things that were totally different.
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Sailor Sindbad
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 05 Dec 2019
Posts: 77

Styles: Kobayashi Shorin-ryu, Shotokan, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
Personally it is probably quite hard to come up with an 'overall' karate kihon kata list due to the different lineages and origins. Might be possible to do it for those from a Naha-te origin and a separate list for those of a Shuri-te origin.


I'm kind of curious as to how this would work for Naha-te. Uechi-ryu is classified as Naha-te, but my understanding is that Kanbun Uechi learned everything he knew in China, and not from any Naha-te masters in Okinawa. So I'm curious as to whether or not they even have the same katas.
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aurik
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 481
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:
DarthPenguin wrote:
Personally it is probably quite hard to come up with an 'overall' karate kihon kata list due to the different lineages and origins. Might be possible to do it for those from a Naha-te origin and a separate list for those of a Shuri-te origin.


I'm kind of curious as to how this would work for Naha-te. Uechi-ryu is classified as Naha-te, but my understanding is that Kanbun Uechi learned everything he knew in China, and not from any Naha-te masters in Okinawa. So I'm curious as to whether or not they even have the same katas.


Uechi-Ryu has Sanchin and Seisan, which are two very common kata among Okinawan styles. Those 2 kata, along with Sanseiryu, are the core kata of Uechi-Ryu. In fact, tests for rokudan and above ONLY include those 3 kata (and not the other kata in the system).
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KumiteDutchie
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 19 Feb 2023
Posts: 8
Location: Helmond, Netherlands
Styles: Shotokan, Kase Ha Shotokan Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:

Personally? I think Taikyokus are a waste. Everything in the Taikyoku series is captured in the Pinan/Heian series.

With the exception of the hammer fist (which is easy to learn) all moves in Heian Shodan are part of white belt kihon in Shotokan, so I don't see the point in Taikyokus.


The question was "What do you think are THE kihon katas of ALL of karate?" Popularity and variations aside, I feel the Taikyoku series are very much kihon based. In fact, they ARE kihon.

Karate is repetition. Repetition of it's most basic techniques hone your skills, and the Taikyoku series can be a valuable asset in that regard in my opinion. To state that because we have the Heians, the Taikyokus are superfluous, is the same as saying we do not need Heian Yondan because we have Kanku Dai, or Heian Nidan because we have Bassai Dai. In my present dojo they are eachothers cousins, and all help you to become a better karateka. So, in regards to kihon kata's, I stand by my answer.
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Sailor Sindbad
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 05 Dec 2019
Posts: 77

Styles: Kobayashi Shorin-ryu, Shotokan, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KumiteDutchie wrote:
The question was "What do you think are THE kihon katas of ALL of karate?" Popularity and variations aside, I feel the Taikyoku series are very much kihon based. In fact, they ARE kihon.


They fall short of kihon. Taikyokus and Heians follow the same embusen. Other than the hammer fist (which is learned in literally 1.5 seconds), the only differences between Taikyoku Shodan and Heian Shodan are the shuto ukes and age ukes (both of which are part of white belt kihon anyway).

KumiteDutchie wrote:
Karate is repetition. Repetition of it's most basic techniques hone your skills, and the Taikyoku series can be a valuable asset in that regard in my opinion.


Valuable to kanchos, yes. Taikyokus add more kyu ranks, which means means roughly three more months worth of tuition money and testing fees per kyu rank. Cha ching!

KumiteDutchie wrote:
To state that because we have the Heians, the Taikyokus are superfluous, is the same as saying we do not need Heian Yondan because we have Kanku Dai, or Heian Nidan because we have Bassai Dai. In my present dojo they are eachothers cousins, and all help you to become a better karateka. So, in regards to kihon kata's, I stand by my answer.


That's a slippery slope. As I said before, Heian Shodan covers what's in the white belt kihons. Bassai Dai and Kanku Dai are more advanced than that, which is why the slippery slope doesn't work.

Bear this in mind: Taikyokus were developed by Gigo Funakoshi, which means that they were intended for Shotokan. Why they're in Shorin-ryu Shorinkan, I have no clue, except that somebody simply thought it was a good idea to take them on.

ISKF and SKIF have been doing fine for a long time without Taikyokus, and JKA only does one - so there is a consensus out there on whether or not they're a necessary part of the curriculum.
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DarthPenguin
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 824
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:


Valuable to kanchos, yes. Taikyokus add more kyu ranks, which means means roughly three more months worth of tuition money and testing fees per kyu rank. Cha ching!



Am curious, how many more kyu ranks have you seen this add? Not sure how it adds more months of tuition fees either, assuming that someone isn't just training until shodan and then planning to leave, in which case yes it would add a few mths.

I'm with the KUGB (which was originally JKA years ago) and we have a sole 'Kihon Kata' which i think is one of the Taikyoku's. It is performed for the first belt (9th kyu, orange belt). Doesn't seem to add anything extra kyu wise. Tbh we could probably add some more katas in pre black belt since we use Bassai Dai at 3rd kyu -> 2nd kyu, at 2nd kyu -> 1st kyu and at 1st Kyu -> 1st Dan
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Sailor Sindbad
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 05 Dec 2019
Posts: 77

Styles: Kobayashi Shorin-ryu, Shotokan, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
Am curious, how many more kyu ranks have you seen this add?


ISKF has nine kyu ranks. If you look at the Shotokan associations that have Taikyoku Shodan, they have 10.

The Shorin-ryu dojo that I left has 13 kyu ranks. One of those kyu ranks learns the first three Taikyokus, and the next rank learns the other two. So that's two kyu ranks.

Quote:
Not sure how it adds more months of tuition fees either, assuming that someone isn't just training until shodan and then planning to leave, in which case yes it would add a few mths.


My last dojo doesn't charge tuition to yudansha, so there's that. Even with that not being the case at every dojo, people leaving after shodan is common enough for someone so inclined to have plans in place to squeeze as much $$$ as possible from it.

Quote:
I'm with the KUGB (which was originally JKA years ago) and we have a sole 'Kihon Kata' which i think is one of the Taikyoku's. It is performed for the first belt (9th kyu, orange belt). Doesn't seem to add anything extra kyu wise. Tbh we could probably add some more katas in pre black belt since we use Bassai Dai at 3rd kyu -> 2nd kyu, at 2nd kyu -> 1st kyu and at 1st Kyu -> 1st Dan


Same embusen as the Heians, only it's block-punch on the ends, and three punches down the middle? Then it's Taikyoku. Other than maybe for small children's classes, I'm not seeing how someone can be smart enough to learn Taikyoku Shodan but not yet smart enough for Heian Shodan.
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DarthPenguin
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 824
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:


Same embusen as the Heians, only it's block-punch on the ends, and three punches down the middle? Then it's Taikyoku. Other than maybe for small children's classes, I'm not seeing how someone can be smart enough to learn Taikyoku Shodan but not yet smart enough for Heian Shodan.


Yep thats the one we call Kihon Kata. Though i don't think there is any problem with it being taught. We then teach Heian Shodan as "similar to kihon kata but on the way down you do age uke and there is a hammerfist near the beginning"

Since there are so many similarities with the Heian's then where do you draw the line : they are smart enough to learn Heian Yondan so why not just learn Heian Godan etc. I have seen plenty of people struggling to learn the sequences with even the beginning Heian's so it is hard to generalise. Not everyone learns at the same pace and karate is meant to be an inclusive activity so i don't see the harm.

As a comparison, i used to train in a taekwondo offshoot that had its versions of katas covering 2 grades, so you did the yellow belt pattern when yellow belt and when you were in between yellow and green etc. Didn't really see any massive benefit to there being less patterns tbh.

If anything i could see an argument for adding in 2 more kata pre black belt. Since we do Bassai Dai at brown, then could add something in for 2nd kyu and 1st kyu, or delay Bassai Dai a little and add something first.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30124
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, kata could be added, or the kata you have could be honed and trained on more. If kata are going to be added, there should be a pretty good reason for adding them, aside from just adding more curriculum.
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DarthPenguin
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 824
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Sure, kata could be added, or the kata you have could be honed and trained on more. If kata are going to be added, there should be a pretty good reason for adding them, aside from just adding more curriculum.


Valid point! Personally i would just keep it as it is - unless there is a good/valid reason for moving from the status quo then don't think we would need to.

Though i am aware that this is running at a tangent to the original purpose of the thread! Sorry!
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