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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashworth wrote:
If you put yourself in a position to have to use your self-defence so that you can gain real-life experience to become a more credible instructor then you have missed the point of self-defence


This sums up the feelings of disagreement that I had in a much more succinct way than I think I could have said it.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29539
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Most college professors....
don’t know what professors you’ve delt with, but all of mine have actually done the stuff they teach.
Same with my gf…


Criminal justice majors who have never done anything within the justice system, like law enforcement and such. But teach courses on such subjects as community policing.

I think this can tend to happen in accounting as well, and business courses. They never do any actual accounting, or have ever actually run a business, but teach courses on it.
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DarthPenguin
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 315
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Most college professors....
don’t know what professors you’ve delt with, but all of mine have actually done the stuff they teach.
Same with my gf…


Criminal justice majors who have never done anything within the justice system, like law enforcement and such. But teach courses on such subjects as community policing.

I think this can tend to happen in accounting as well, and business courses. They never do any actual accounting, or have ever actually run a business, but teach courses on it.


I'd slightly modify the statement at the bottom - work wise what i have observed is those who are good at it do it, those who aren't good enough teach it. (the old "those who can do do, those who can't teach" saying). Slight modification i would make is most of those in the business /accounting sphere have done it, but those who weren't very good at it after a few years teach. Myself i'm an actuary and (with a few exceptions) i'd say the same holds true for my profession - we also work with a lot of accountants and general business folk, and from what i have observed the same is true for them.

This reminds me of an old debate i have had with friends about football : do you need to have played to a high standard to coach it? I don't think so as it is a different skill set (i point to Jose Mourinho who was an interpreter before becoming a leading coach; Arsene Wenger did economics i think and a few others as examples. In fact most of the 'great' players who went into coaching failed as the players weren't up to their standard.

To come back onto topic, the fact that Abernathy openly says he doesn't have much 'real' fight experience doesn't mean he doesn't know the techniques and can't teach them properly. It might mean that in a pressure situation he couldn't personally utilise them but that doesn't mean he can't teach someone else the mechanics. I did have a former coach that would have massively disagreed with me though here : as part of his grading system he wouldn't promote you beyond a certain point unless you could 'demonstrate some real self defence experience'; his solution for this was you had to work the door at a place in Glasgow a friend of his owned for a while. This led to 'practical training' fairly often (total scam of his but thats another story)!
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LionsDen
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashworth wrote:
If you put yourself in a position to have to use your self-defence so that you can gain real-life experience to become a more credible instructor then you have missed the point of self-defence

Literally no one said anything remotely close to that…
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LionsDen
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash wrote:
lets see, there are boxing coaches who have never fought, some who fought amatuer but never made it to the pro level, and a few who never fought at all, there are military instructors who never went to war, the list goes on, academia has its place, even in the combat arena
and the militaries that have people teaching with no combat experience tend to be trash at war when they finally get a taste of it….there’s a pretty good example of that going on right now…

I’ve never seen a boxing coach who didn’t have at least a few fights/smokers on their record.
How successful are those coaches?
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Most college professors....
don’t know what professors you’ve delt with, but all of mine have actually done the stuff they teach.
Same with my gf…


Criminal justice majors who have never done anything within the justice system, like law enforcement and such. But teach courses on such subjects as community policing.

I think this can tend to happen in accounting as well, and business courses. They never do any actual accounting, or have ever actually run a business, but teach courses on it.


I'd slightly modify the statement at the bottom - work wise what i have observed is those who are good at it do it, those who aren't good enough teach it. (the old "those who can do do, those who can't teach" saying). Slight modification i would make is most of those in the business /accounting sphere have done it, but those who weren't very good at it after a few years teach. Myself i'm an actuary and (with a few exceptions) i'd say the same holds true for my profession - we also work with a lot of accountants and general business folk, and from what i have observed the same is true for them.

This reminds me of an old debate i have had with friends about football : do you need to have played to a high standard to coach it? I don't think so as it is a different skill set (i point to Jose Mourinho who was an interpreter before becoming a leading coach; Arsene Wenger did economics i think and a few others as examples. In fact most of the 'great' players who went into coaching failed as the players weren't up to their standard.

To come back onto topic, the fact that Abernathy openly says he doesn't have much 'real' fight experience doesn't mean he doesn't know the techniques and can't teach them properly. It might mean that in a pressure situation he couldn't personally utilise them but that doesn't mean he can't teach someone else the mechanics. I did have a former coach that would have massively disagreed with me though here : as part of his grading system he wouldn't promote you beyond a certain point unless you could 'demonstrate some real self defence experience'; his solution for this was you had to work the door at a place in Glasgow a friend of his owned for a while. This led to 'practical training' fairly often (total scam of his but thats another story)!

There’s a difference between teaching mechanics, and telling people what works in a fight and what works in real life, and what training methods are best. There’s a difference between teaching self defense, and teaching the mechanics of certain movements.

Saying that combat sports training or combat sport style training doesn’t work for self defense, is that exact opposite of my fairly extensive experience.
The traditional self defense training that was very similar to what Abernathy preaches and what can be found all over various TMA self defense videos did not prepare me for situations where I ended up having to protect myself or others.
What did help? Combat sport training, and a self defense drill I haven’t seen replicated any where else.
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crash
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Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 143

Styles: karate,

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
crash wrote:
lets see, there are boxing coaches who have never fought, some who fought amatuer but never made it to the pro level, and a few who never fought at all, there are military instructors who never went to war, the list goes on, academia has its place, even in the combat arena
and the militaries that have people teaching with no combat experience tend to be trash at war when they finally get a taste of it….there’s a pretty good example of that going on right now…

I’ve never seen a boxing coach who didn’t have at least a few fights/smokers on their record.
How successful are those coaches?



angelo dundee never fought, he was ali's coach
terry edwards never fought, yet was an excellent coach
cus demato, tysons coach, 0-2 record
there are many others who either never fought or werent very good, but knew the mechanics of fighting at a higher level than most actual fighters.
as far as the military is concerned, most of the leaders come from officer candidate school and other leadership courses/schools within the military. before the middle eastern conflicts the US military had reached a point where most leaders had not seen any combat, yet we were still one of the greatest militaries in the world. even now there are many, many, leaders within our own units who have not seen war. yet are fully capable of leading and teaching the units they command.
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DarthPenguin
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 315
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
DarthPenguin wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Most college professors....
don’t know what professors you’ve delt with, but all of mine have actually done the stuff they teach.
Same with my gf…


Criminal justice majors who have never done anything within the justice system, like law enforcement and such. But teach courses on such subjects as community policing.

I think this can tend to happen in accounting as well, and business courses. They never do any actual accounting, or have ever actually run a business, but teach courses on it.


I'd slightly modify the statement at the bottom - work wise what i have observed is those who are good at it do it, those who aren't good enough teach it. (the old "those who can do do, those who can't teach" saying). Slight modification i would make is most of those in the business /accounting sphere have done it, but those who weren't very good at it after a few years teach. Myself i'm an actuary and (with a few exceptions) i'd say the same holds true for my profession - we also work with a lot of accountants and general business folk, and from what i have observed the same is true for them.

This reminds me of an old debate i have had with friends about football : do you need to have played to a high standard to coach it? I don't think so as it is a different skill set (i point to Jose Mourinho who was an interpreter before becoming a leading coach; Arsene Wenger did economics i think and a few others as examples. In fact most of the 'great' players who went into coaching failed as the players weren't up to their standard.

To come back onto topic, the fact that Abernathy openly says he doesn't have much 'real' fight experience doesn't mean he doesn't know the techniques and can't teach them properly. It might mean that in a pressure situation he couldn't personally utilise them but that doesn't mean he can't teach someone else the mechanics. I did have a former coach that would have massively disagreed with me though here : as part of his grading system he wouldn't promote you beyond a certain point unless you could 'demonstrate some real self defence experience'; his solution for this was you had to work the door at a place in Glasgow a friend of his owned for a while. This led to 'practical training' fairly often (total scam of his but thats another story)!

There’s a difference between teaching mechanics, and telling people what works in a fight and what works in real life, and what training methods are best. There’s a difference between teaching self defense, and teaching the mechanics of certain movements.

Saying that combat sports training or combat sport style training doesn’t work for self defense, is that exact opposite of my fairly extensive experience.
The traditional self defense training that was very similar to what Abernathy preaches and what can be found all over various TMA self defense videos did not prepare me for situations where I ended up having to protect myself or others.
What did help? Combat sport training, and a self defense drill I haven’t seen replicated any where else.


I think we sorta agree. Where we differ is i don't think there is an issue with someone who is a technical expert teaching the techniques but then i do agree to demonstrate that you can apply/use the techniques that you need to have applied them in the most realistic environment possible.

I am always quite sceptical of some of the massively complicated 'self defence' things that are taught - in a high pressure situation will you remember "intricate precise combination 15?". In the (thankfully relatively few) times where i have had to use any i always found that i resorted to a straight front or read hand punch; front kick; elbow and (since i am Glaswegian) the head! To produce some of the complicated bunkai sequences in a high pressure, adrenaline rich, self defence situation seems like quite an ask to me!

Personal view only and there are plenty of people more skilled than me who maybe can apply these things and have examples of landing a 360degree roundhouse kick in an actual fight!!
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LionsDen
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also the wide spread teaching of Uke techniques as blocks is a perfect example of why people without actual experience shouldn’t be trying to teach people how to fight.

Caveats apply here and there, like with boxing back in the day, sparring was often about as full contact as an actual match, and when only one generation or so from someone who knows what they’re doing.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29539
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
crash wrote:
lets see, there are boxing coaches who have never fought, some who fought amatuer but never made it to the pro level, and a few who never fought at all, there are military instructors who never went to war, the list goes on, academia has its place, even in the combat arena
and the militaries that have people teaching with no combat experience tend to be trash at war when they finally get a taste of it….there’s a pretty good example of that going on right now…

I’ve never seen a boxing coach who didn’t have at least a few fights/smokers on their record.
How successful are those coaches?



angelo dundee never fought, he was ali's coach
terry edwards never fought, yet was an excellent coach
cus demato, tysons coach, 0-2 record
there are many others who either never fought or werent very good, but knew the mechanics of fighting at a higher level than most actual fighters.
as far as the military is concerned, most of the leaders come from officer candidate school and other leadership courses/schools within the military. before the middle eastern conflicts the US military had reached a point where most leaders had not seen any combat, yet we were still one of the greatest militaries in the world. even now there are many, many, leaders within our own units who have not seen war. yet are fully capable of leading and teaching the units they command.


How many other great fighters did they "produce?"

When you get into the professional levels of competition, it's hard to tell which coaches are good, and which ones are made to look good by the talent of their athletes.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
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