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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Is there room for grappling Chinese martial arts or are they stereotyped as everything but grapplers?

Because there is a joke that, Chinese martial artists don't do grappling, because they never fall down in a fight, not for hundreds of years.

As the Chinese government have promoted martial arts in a health and exercise capacity for many years, the combative arts have been set aside for the police and military use.

It is alot healthier for the Chinese aging population to be practicing Tai Chi in the park than BJJ on the beach.

If comparing the Japanese grappling disciplines with Chinese Chin Na, better to look at their police and military for reference.


Perhaps. It depends on the training methodology. See, the thing that more than any other factor that has lead to the dominance of certain grappling systems over others is simply the fact that we practice at full speed against intelligently resisting opponents.
Simply that. It is more important to be able to perform a technique under the duress of full speed sparring and/or competition than it is to "know" a "deadlier" or "more dangerous" technique. What you know is useless in a fight compared to what you can do. And what you can do is determined not by mindset or meditation, but by what you HAVE done under as close to realistic conditions as possible and your physical condition.


From a Chin Na perspective, jujitsu and judo are watered down grappling arts, which are missing other elements that make them incomplete.

As yes, jujitsu and judo are specialists in certain areas of grappling, but miss out on other aspects, that don't pertain to its marketing structure framework.

Chin Na isn't marketable but jujitsu and judo are.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(This might be of interest for those that like to mix history with grappling)

Over 6,000 years ago, the earliest Chinese term for wrestling, "jǐao dǐ" (角抵, horn butting), refers to an ancient style of military Kung-Fu in which soldiers wore horned headgear with which they attempted to butt, throw and defeat their enemies. Ancient Chinese imperial records state that "jiao di" was used in 2697 BC by the Yellow Emperor's army to gore the soldiers of a rebel army led by Chiyou.[1] In later times, young people would play a similar game, emulating the contests of domestic cattle, without the headgear. Jiao di has been described as an originating source of wrestling and latter forms of martial arts in China.[2]

"Jiao li" (角力) was first referenced in the Classic of Rites[3] during the Zhou Dynasty. Jiao li supplemented throwing techniques with strikes, blocks, joint locks and attacks on pressure points.[1] These exercises were practiced in the winter by soldiers who also practiced archery and studied military strategy.[4]

Jiao li eventually became a public sport held for court amusement as well as for recruiting the best fighters. Competitors wrestled each other on a raised platform called a "lei tai" for the potential reward of being hired as a bodyguard to the emperor or a martial arts instructor for the Imperial Military. Jiao li was taught to soldiers in China over many centuries and its popularity among the military guaranteed its influence on later Chinese martial arts through the end of the Qing dynasty.

The term "shuai jiao" was chosen by the Central Guoshu Academy (Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan 中央國術館) of Nanjing in 1928 when competition rules were standardized .[5] The art continues to be taught in the police and military academies of China.

Fom Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao
-------------------------------------------------
Also:

Modern Shuai Jiao evolved from an ancient form of battlefield combat. Its techniques are the culmination of tested grappling experience in the best environment – the battlefield. This practical and devastatingly efficient method of combat has evolved into a sophisticated and effective - no nonsense - system of martial arts. Its philosophy shares the same principle of internal systems of Chinese martial arts: Yin and Yang. In fact, the advanced Shuai Jiao practitioner utilises both Internal and External principles and views these principles as two sides of the same coin meeting at a junction, and complimenting each other, but coming from totally different origins. In modern times Shuai Jiao Masters are employed by the police and military of a number of nations across the world including China and Taiwan (ROC). So even today, Shuai Jiao's effectivness as a martial art is still being proven, in both close military combat and the street.

Sourced from
http://www.kuoshu.co.uk/History%20-%20SJ.htm
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Tempest
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Chin Na isn't marketable but jujitsu and judo are.


Why not?

There shouldn't be any more problem with marketing the one than the other. In fact, with the in-place, and sometimes government sponsored, at least in China, market for Chinese MA, it should be fairly easy to market.

The only issue I can see is that you have things like this happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUOXGQ0MqP0

Here we have a CMA "master" making the challenge to an MMA fighter and then getting his clock cleaned.

Or you have this idiot trying to block punches with his chi:
https://tinyurl.com/ycvtk2e3

If CMA have a marketing problem, it's in the amount of people claiming to be doing them that are not doing anything with any martial validity to it.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Chin Na isn't marketable but jujitsu and judo are.


Why not?

There shouldn't be any more problem with marketing the one than the other. In fact, with the in-place, and sometimes government sponsored, at least in China, market for Chinese MA, it should be fairly easy to market.

The only issue I can see is that you have things like this happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUOXGQ0MqP0

Here we have a CMA "master" making the challenge to an MMA fighter and then getting his clock cleaned.

Or you have this idiot trying to block punches with his chi:
https://tinyurl.com/ycvtk2e3

If CMA have a marketing problem, it's in the amount of people claiming to be doing them that are not doing anything with any martial validity to it.
Poor examples of videos, funny, how these have no bearing on this subject; except avoiding the facts of grappling history.

Could just as well put some Harry Potter links, for all the difference it makes.

I did offer to compare with the Chinese police and military grappling disciplines but obviously, there is no interest in reality only fraudulent chi masters.

I am impressed how the blonde guy stopped the uppercut with his chin-na-not really! LOL thanx for sharing, it was worth watching.
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Tempest
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Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Tempest wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Chin Na isn't marketable but jujitsu and judo are.


Why not?

There shouldn't be any more problem with marketing the one than the other. In fact, with the in-place, and sometimes government sponsored, at least in China, market for Chinese MA, it should be fairly easy to market.

The only issue I can see is that you have things like this happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUOXGQ0MqP0

Here we have a CMA "master" making the challenge to an MMA fighter and then getting his clock cleaned.

Or you have this idiot trying to block punches with his chi:
https://tinyurl.com/ycvtk2e3

If CMA have a marketing problem, it's in the amount of people claiming to be doing them that are not doing anything with any martial validity to it.
Poor examples of videos, funny, how these have no bearing on this subject; except avoiding the facts of grappling history.

Could just as well put some Harry Potter links, for all the difference it makes.

I did offer to compare with the Chinese police and military grappling disciplines but obviously, there is no interest in reality only fraudulent chi masters.


Ok, you were the one that raised the point of marketing being the issue with Quin Na. I was simply addressing that point as I don't think it is valid. You still haven't addressed my question as to why you think marketing is an issue for CMA?

Now, that said, let's address your next point, which is a comparison of of Chinese military martial arts. As far as I know, the martial arts that are used and taught by the Chinese military units are variations of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanshou

Now, looking at one of that arts most skilled and decorated competitors, this guy:
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Cung-Le-14883

He has an impressive competition record, and if I remember correctly did serve in the Chinese army for a bit.
That said, I have watched him fight and he has not won with or really used high level grappling even once in his professional career. I would describe him as a very skilled Chinese kick-boxer with at best limited grappling experience.
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MatsuShinshii
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Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest,

I love watching these clowns get straightened out by reality. Thanks for posting. I'm going to be laughing for at least another hour. Great stuff!
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was hoping to have an intelligent conversation about grappling style and techniques from different perspectives.

As this is not possible, due to mixing irrelevant information to this topic, also being insulted being compared to a clown.

Time to go

Good bye guys!
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Tempest
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
I was hoping to have an intelligent conversation about grappling style and techniques from different perspectives.

As this is not possible, due to mixing irrelevant information to this topic, also being insulted being compared to a clown.

Time to go

Good bye guys!


Go if you wish. I wasn't insulting you. I was addressing the points you raised by directly replying to them and interjecting both my commentary and supporting documentation and evidence which is a habit I will continue.

That said, you started this thread with a post that made some dubious at best claims, and I addressed them. You then replied to that, asking about techniques and space for the grappling of CMA, and I addressed that. You then made a comment about the popularity of Judo and Jiu-jitsu being related to marketing. I took issue with this as I believe it to be incorrect and provided my evidence and opinion as to why. You ignored that and called it irrelevant. I then addressed the other point you made about comparison of Chinese military martial arts with linked evidence. You have now called it irrelevant and are storming off apparently because Matsu made a snide, but not incorrect, comment.
Now, if you want to discuss the specifics of technical approaches between different styles of grappling, you still have failed to address my main point in that area, which is, and will always be, that aliveness is the key. Training against an intelligently resisting opponent that is trying to apply their techniques at as close to full speed and power as possible is the best way to train, well, I think anything, but I can PROVE it for the case of grappling.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://sites.google.com/site/lehijujitsu/origins-of-jujitsu-jiu-jitsu

About 400 years ago the Takenouchi school of jujitsu was systemized. Sixty years later a Chinese came to Japan and taught the art of boxing. And forty years later another Chinese visited Japan and introduced an art of seizing one's opponent. Through the process of elimination and harmonization a new art known as Yawara was created and popularized. This is the origin of the present day jujitsu.

http://judoinfo.com/judohistory/

Opinions differ as to the origin of the art. One traces it to Chin Gempin, a naturalized Chinese, of whom mention is made in the following paragraph. Another attributes it to Shirobei Akiyama, a physician at Nagasaki, who is stated to have learned three tricks of hakuda in China. A third, on the other hand, claims the art to be the production of pure Japanese ingenuity.

To state more in detail, Chin Gempin was naturalized as a Japanese subject in 1659 and died in 1671. While sojourning at the Kokushoji temple at Azabu, Tokyo (then Yedo), he, it is stated, taught three tricks of jujitsu to three ronin (samurai discharged from their lord’s service). These ronin were Shichiroyemon Fukuno, Yojiyemon Miura and Jirozayemon Isogai, and after much study, they each founded their own schools of jujitsu. It is beyond doubt that what was learned by them consisted of three kinds of atewaza (that is to say, striking the vital and vulnerable parts of the body) of the Chinese kempo (pugilism). We cannot, therefore, arrive at the hasty conclusion that Chin is the founder of jujitsu in this country, though it must be stated to his credit that his teaching gave an undoubted impulse to the development of jujitsu

http://www.jujitsuwales.com/about/history/

Chinese influence

Prior to the foundation of the Takenouche-Ryu, open-handed combat techniques existed solely as a secondary art to major weapons system. Most modern Ju-Jitsu Ryu can trace their lineage directly back to Takenouche. In the early 16th century, Hideyoshi Toyotomi introduced the Chinese Art of Ch-an Fa (punching and nerve striking) to Japan and it was adopted by Ju-Jitsu
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Tempest
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Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha, now we are getting somewhere.

Now, of the sources you have posted, only this one:

http://judoinfo.com/judohistory/

Attempts even the lightest amount of academic rigor on the early origins of the art, and has this conclusion to it:

"What may be considered as a strong proof against the above mentioned views is that both yawara and toride are referred to in a book styled “Kuyamigusa ” (My Confessions) which was published in 1647, twelve years prior to the immigration of Chin Gempin. Moreover, the term kumiuchi is often found in still older books. These records afford ground for believing that jujitsu prevailed in Japan at a much earlier period. Further, the Takenouchi school, which is acknowledged by the majority of jujitsu professors to be the oldest of the kind, was founded in 1532 by Hisamori Takenouchi. It is therefore indisputable that that school was in existence long before Chin Gempin ever set foot on this land.
All these considerations go far towards confirming the claim of the third view, that jujitsu is indigenous and not foreign. It is true that the terms jujitsu, yawara, etc., are quite modern, but the art, in its initial stages, can be traced as far back as 24 B.C. In that year, so the record goes, Emperor Suinin ordered two strong men, Nomi-no-Sukune and Taima-no-Kuehaya, to wrestle in his presence. After fighting, which consisted mainly of kicking, the former gained the ascendancy and finally broke the ribs of his opponent. Elated by his success, Nomi went the length of trampling upon and breaking the loins of his vanquished competitor, which ended fatally to the latter. This record is generally accepted as showing the origin of wrestling in this country. Considering, however, the fact that Kuehaya was kicked to death, it seems that the contest partook more of the nature of jujitsu than that of wrestling."

Which seems to give rise to the view that I stated earlier, which is that although there is some chinese influence, as there is in all things Japanese from the middle ages, due to their obsession with Chinese culture and thought, the origins of the fighting arts that became Jiu-jitsu are quite local to Japan, and are more tied up with local weapon arts and wrestling styles than with foreign influences.

Which, to note, is something you will find just about everywhere that has a true native martial culture where the fighting arts are a derivative of the military training. At least through the middle ages and in to the renaissance.
Northern Italy, the Germanic States, Japan, Ireland, North and South America, the list goes on and on. Which segues nicely in to my point to Matsu about the origins of martial arts as a whole.
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