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tamaro
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 22 Apr 2014
Posts: 22


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:48 am    Post subject: Roundhouse kick impact area Reply with quote

Hello,

Across different martial arts, we can usually find 3 ways of connecting with a roundhouse kick:
1) Shin
2) Instep
3) Ball of the foot

In muay thai,kick boxing and some styles of karate, the shin is used as impact area.

The instep is seen frequently today in most styles of karate and taekwondo, although the correct way to executing the technique is by hitting with the ball of the foot.

Instep use seems to have been born from point-base competition, and works great for that. But I've only seen people kicking with the instep or shin in MMA fights.

I have little doubt that many kicks that didn't result in KO could of had much more devastating consequences if the impact area was the ball of the foot instead of the instep or in some situations, the shin. It's tough and focus the impact force on a smaller area.

I can understand why people hit with the shin in MMA fights, it's their background martial art correct way of doing it. But don't see the point in people with Karate/Taekwondo background striking with the instep or even shin.

Wondering how forum members usually hit the roundhouse and what's their opinion in inset VS shin VS ball of foot. I should be missing something here.


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guird
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 198

Styles: BJJ, MMA, Gongkwon Yusul

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When your opponent is moving around a lot, covering their body with their arms and elbows, kicking with the ball of the foot comes at the expense of a significant risk to your toes. Also, I find that even when this kick impacts perfectly it hurts my ankle if the kick is hard. The joint isn't made to take a large impact perpendicular to the shin.
I have heard of one taekwondo guy in MMA who likes to kick with the ball of the foot to catch his opponents off guard, but it seems to be more a trick you pull out in certain situations than the default way to do the roundhouse.

As savateurs have shown, similar kicking technique is useful when you have shoes on.
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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Matsubayashi-Ryu, we train primarily with the ball of the foot as the striking area in a roundhouse kick. It is a much stronger striking surface than the instep, and if trained correctly, isn't really a danger to your toes or ankle. It can be used against hard or soft targets, alike, and can be done with shoes on.

IME, striking with the instep is more of a danger to the toes and ankle at the same time, even with shoes on; the instep is made up of tiny bones and not much else, and too much impact (which is not much) can damage them and the toes and the ankle, all in one.

We also train with the shin as a striking area for fighting at closer range, or done as a transition move to enter Irikumi (in-fighting). In this case, the toes/foot are pointed similar to an instep kick, but again in this case, the striking surface is the shin, not the instep. So, when casual observers see us performing "instep roundhouse kicks", we're actually performing them with the shin as the weapon.


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Zimlock
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 26 Apr 2014
Posts: 13
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Shotokan Karate, Aikikai Aikido

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not nearly trained well enough to kick with the ball- I'll need a lot more practice before I feel comfortable pulling that off every time. The risk is too great - if I damage my toe, I can't train for a few weeks! So the instep is the way to go in kumite for now.
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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zimlock wrote:
I'm not nearly trained well enough to kick with the ball- I'll need a lot more practice before I feel comfortable pulling that off every time. The risk is too great - if I damage my toe, I can't train for a few weeks! So the instep is the way to go in kumite for now.


Even if you are able to train your roundhouse enough to kick with the ball of your foot, instep is still the recommended method for competition/tournaments. Not for toe reasons, but for the safety of your partner, and not just because the bottoms of your feet are un-padded in tournaments. This is one of the reasons the instep kick was developed, IMHO. If done with equal power, I guarantee you that a roundhouse with ball of foot will cause much more damage to your partner than an instep roundhouse (and would possibly disqualify you from the match, depending on the tournament rules).

As for what I said about the bones in your instep, in most tournaments, competitors must wear pads on their feet, which covers the instep and sides (most pads, anyways). This padding does alleviate some of the impact to your own instep, as it was designed to, as well as being part of your partner's protection.


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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2421
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've learned how to kick with all three striking surfaces, but most of the time I use the bony mass on the instep, just below my ankle. Most people who kick hard prefer to use their shin, but the instep/ankle area works best for me. I've broken my big toes a couple times without letting them heal properly, so it's difficult for me to pull them back for any kicks with the ball of the foot.
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BlackKnight
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 42

Styles: Chibana-ha ShorinRyu

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a shin guy. Occasionally toe depending on the target area (I love inside of the thigh). I gave up ball of the foot long ago.
EDIT: I forgot to add that I also gave up instep as well.
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Last edited by BlackKnight on Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6140
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taekwondo does use all three variants although you are probably right in that the instep and ball of the foot are the more favoured. Why do we use the ball and the instep? For a couple of reasons:

Firstly ball of the foot gives you a longer reach than the shin. The instep even more so. In points competition this is naturally an advantage as it allows you to spar at greater range and keep the opponent away. It is also a part of our methodology in that we are taught to keep the opponent at the greatest range possible and to be very hesitant to give away range. Hence the emphasis on kicking ability.

Choice of ball vs instep for us it to do with the angle. Ball of the foot is stronger but it has its limitations. For proper use of the ball of the foot, the target is almost always on the 45 degree angle in front of you. This is so that the ball is pronounced and there is less risk of catching the toes. If the target is directly in front then the instep is preferable as it can be angled properly.

Another consideration is that invariably when using these techniques outside of the dojang, you will be wearing shoes of some sort. Most shoes aren't flexible enough to pull the toes back so instep can be used as a) it is a natural position for the foot in shoes and b) it is also better protected. Of course the shin would be fine too but to use that would be giving up range which goes against our methodology.
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mazzybear
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 30 Oct 2013
Posts: 659
Location: Scotland.
Styles: Wado Kai

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For competition purposes it's always the instep, but my instructor tells us if it's outside ALWAYS use the shin, if you kick full force with the instep there is a huge likelyhood your foot will break, even with shoes on. In our conditioning class if we're doing the roundhouse we put our shin guards on so we can kick a little harder than normal, even with the shin guards on a kick to the ribs using the shin still stings. My instructor has a few broken ribs to prove it. When kicking the Thai pads it's always done with the shin too.


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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14370
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our kicks are geared for no higher than the stomach, with the majority of the target being the inside/outside of the opponents legs. Having said that, we concentrate on using our shins above all others. We will use the instep for set-ups, jams, and for checks. We use the ball, as DWx has stated, for reach and/or to get under/around [however, the use of the ball for our Tuite usages is very rarely used]

In tournaments, well, that's a different world. I've used them all according to the content of what my opponent is offering me, and what the rules of said tournament are. Allow face contact, I'll instep your face to death. You blitz me, I'll tap your face with my ball as I've sidestepped out and in towards you. Want to stay close with me, I'll shin your legs to a bruised pulp in order to set up the roundhouse; kick your opponent enough in the legs with purpose, opponents tend to retreat, in a haste and it's that retreat that opens a lot of possibilities.

1 year of TKD while I was a JBB in Shindokan, really opened my eyes to the wonderful world of kicking above the stomach. Over the years after that 1 year of TKD, I've become quite proficient in high kicks. Trained with some of the most fantastic TKD practitioners in the San Fernando Valley over the many years sure did help a lot. Mixing Shindokan with TKD kicking; made me a tournament champion over and over. The shin, ball, and instep ideology is a desire of preference; it's the bread and butter.

I'd say that my kicking has become quite eclectic. Which is funny because Shindokan IS 85% hands, and 15% feet.




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