Showing up the instructor?

DLopez · Purple Belt

We had a 'situation' arise in our advanced class the other day...

Our instructor was showing us some basic grappling maneuvers and techniques, and the usual "what if the attacker does this?" questions started coming up.

Our instructor was about to show a couple of possible counters to a choke hold and as soon as he said "Now, when the attacker applies a choke..." the student that was posing as the attacker applied a really, really tight choke on him. It was so tight that our instructor's face was turning beet red and he couldn't even speak to say "Loosen up so I can talk!".

The only thing our instructor could do then was treat it like a real attack and attempt an escape, which he eventually did, reversing his position and forcing the student to tap out (real quickly too, I might add).

The rest of us were stunned that this other student would do that, and our impression was that he was deliberately making it as difficult as possible for our instructor to escape. The appearance was that he was trying to show up the instructor.

The student in question had studied TKD before, and perhaps he still has doubts about the effectiveness of Kuk Sool Won, but he's already a Dahn Bo Nym (black belt candidate), so he must believe in it somewhat if he's continued thus far.

In the very least, most of us that witnessed it feel it was a disgraceful show of disrespect to our instructor, in that his intention was to prove that our instructor could not escape from his choke hold.

Our instructor intended to demonstrate some possible counters slowly, so we could see it step by step. He wasn't intending on testing this student to see how good of a choke hold he could apply and whether he could break it. When our instructor had to resort to his wealth of experience and escape, it happened too fast for the rest of us to see what he actually did, so any 'learning' potential, however slight, from that situation flew out the window.

If I were the instructor, I would take that as a serious challenge to both my teaching ability and the effectiveness of the techniques I'm trying to teach, and that I would not tolerate it. I'm thinking I'd have to suspend this student at the very least.

Have any other instructors ever had to deal with this situation, and if so, how did you deal with such students?

Expulsion? Suspension? Slap on the wrist?
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Dean
Dahn Boh Nim - Black-Brown Belt
Kuk Sool Won
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow." - James Dean

delta1 · Black Belt

First, it is a credit to your instructors skill that he mannaged to escape without hurting this guy. When a dangerouse hold is applied with that kind of force, you have no choice but to treat it as real and defend against it.

That brings us to the main point, this student is a threat to not only the instructor, but to everyone there. In the martial arts, we allow our fellow students a degree of control and trust we'd allow few, if any, others. We allow them to put us in all kinds of situations that could kill or permanently injure us- and we trust their morality and skill to control their techniques so that everyone walks away intact. This guy has shown a lack of respect, and that he cares little for the safety of others. He showed poor judgement and a disregard for his partner, and contempt for the class in wasteing your training time and subjecting you all to this.

What he might have been thinking at the time is irrelevant. What he did was dangerouse. Whether it was the result of some flawed thought process, or some deeper emotional problem, doesn't matter in the least. I doubt anyone there is qualified to make that judgement any way. But you all can see what happened, and you know it was wrong.

If this was a momentary lapse, I'd say a severe reprimand is in order. And I'd watch him closely, monitor all interaction with other students. I'd withold his candadacy for black belt for a LONG time, until he's shown this is not a seriouse character flaw. Giving him any kind of authority over other students could be disastrous.

If this has ever happened before, to any degree, I'd revoke all rank and send him packing. If your association has any way to notify other schools, I'd report him as a danger so that he doesn't simply go elsewhere and get his rank.

The martial arts are hazzardous enough, and enough accidents and injuries occur without this kind of attitude. I really dislike people like this. Fortunately, they are very few. But, it only takes one, and this guy sounds like he's that one.
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Freedom isn't free!

Shorinryu Sensei · Black Belt

I've been teaching classes since 1978 and have had this situation happen numerous times over the course of those years. This is how I've handled it.

First of all, the student is trying to mess up my demonstrating a technique to the rest of the class. Possibly to see if I can really do what I say I can do, or maybe just to see if he can make himself look tough. Whichever it is, its' definitely not nice!

Of course, I, as the person being attacked, don't know in advance that the student is coming harder than is required for an effective demonstration, but part of being the instructor is that you have to be prepared for just about anything at any time. When a student gets a bit overzealous in his attack, I return the favor and have had to hurt students that are trying to hurt me. Not severely, no, but enough that they damn well know that if I'd have wanted to, I could have done worse to them.

However, when I demonstrate a technique, I normally don't tell them what it is that I will be demonstrating right away. I prefer to tell them to attack me a certain way, or with a certain technique, then I demo the technique as close to actual real speed as possible, and as safely as possible to my opponent. In the case of a rear choke, I expect them to apply a good, strong choke on me, but not crush my windpipe either. I will react with what force is necessary to break the attackers technique and counter with one of my own.

I've not had to repremand a student yet for excessive force while demonstrating on me, but I have had to put people down harder than I anted to just because that amount of force was necessary to free, or protect myself.

I generally use my senior student (2nd Dan) as an aggressor, because he's 6'4" tall, about 230lbs and pretty solid and strong. He knows I want him to attack hard and realistically, and obliges at every opportunity.

DLopez · Purple Belt

delta1 · Black Belt

Sounds like this guy is one of those who wants to prove how tough he is, but doesn't have the cojones to put it on the line with the full contact guys. He has to go somewhere and punch up 15 yr old girls, or abuse the trust of others. He's nobodies friend, since he's too self centered for true friendships. And this type person will hurt someone bad if he isn't stopped.

If you are that good a friend with your instructor, I'd suggest you talk to him. Tell him your concerns, and those of the other students. I'd suggest to the instructor that he doesn't need this kind of liability, and that he is having a bad effect on class morral. Be ready to stand by the instructor if he gives this guy the boot- people like this can be really ugly when they think they are being questioned or disrespected, which is most of the time if I had to guess. He may threaten lawsuits, spread rumors, threaten, whatever his petty mind can come up with to retaliate. You all need to be seen to stand solidly behind your instructor for the long haul if he does the right thing.

I wish him well in dealing with this guy.
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Freedom isn't free!

ramymensa · Black Belt

OUT!!!
This is not the way to do it.
Trust is the most important thing in the dojo and if a person can't be trusted to perform a decent technique without putting somebody elese in jeopardy, then I say out.
Doing what he did was stupid, mean and disrespectful. I don't say a sensei should be put on a pedestal and having his feet kissed 3 times a day, but there must be respect. When you are asked for a demonstration (one of the greatest honors in the class), you must perfom a perfect technique and obey the instructions. Trying to impress this way is imature and again stupid. It ruins the entire goal of the demonstration.
Had something similar when I had to explain a guy how to do a combination with a partner (kizami zuki/harai uke and "reply" with gyaju zuki on plexus area). Simple like that. The guy for the reason he's an idiot couterred with a hard punch on my nose, just to know how it feels to hit like that. I didn't react, though I felt the need to sweep the floor with him, but NEVER EVER showed him anything again. When I'm asked to help people with some combinations I just let sensei take care of the "superman". I've told him I'd never work with him and I'm keeping my promise. (At least until he learns how to behave).

Maybe your instructor could think of a way to educate the guy or just expell him.
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World Shotokan Karate

SaiFightsMS · KF VIP

That kind of an attitude does not bode well for this fellows prospect at future promotions in dojos ran with a traditional sense of honor.

White Warlock · Black Belt

I recall a similar incident with a returning fellow student when studying san soo. The returning student performed all his techniques will little concern for the welfare of his partners. I'm very skilled in falling and absorbing hits, but i knew if this guy practiced with anyone else, he was going to hurt someone. Moreso, he really didn't seem to care. I asked him to chill, but he didn't... so i eventually lost a bit of my cool and when it came my time to react to one of his attacks, i took him out too fast and too hard for my liking. I later spoke to the instructor about my concerns and how this guy had succeeded in getting under my skin (which is exceedingly hard to do, btw). To his credit, the instructor met with the student privately and gave him a talk on the issues he needs to work with before he would be allowed back in class.

I do agree, speak your personal thoughts to the instructor. Sometimes instructors see things, but they're not sure if its some biased response. Affirmation will help him to make the right decision.
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Intro

stl_karateka · Brown Belt

Good convo! As a student I've seen this many times. As a female assistant instructor I've experienced it first hand. I'll share those experiences but before I do I want to ask:

********
Female Instructors --- is it worse for you? How do you deal with 'macho man'? Share your experiences
********

First whenever a grip is too tight we have the 'tap tap' --- and the other person knows that is a sign to loosen up. Sometimes we just have people that don't know there own strength.

Also, we explain to the students that this IS a CLASS environment, and while we try to make it real as possible, we have to a) go slow so he can talk and b) obviously we don't want anyone to get hurt.

We've had 'that guy' that thought he could take out the instructor with a tight hold --- what he forgot is in real life you are probably going to get a pop to the groin or a stomp on the foot to loosen up the tight grip! So that is what my instructor had to do. I was impressed by his control cause he popped him enough to loosen him up but didn't hurt him. And held his composure --- I know he was upset.

Me personally I've had guys underestimate my teaching ability cause I am female. One guy almost got kicked out of class during team sparring when he yelled to his team mate --- don't get beat by a girl! Well this is the same guy I had to spare. He was a beginner and as a BB I go into training mode --- ya know --- leave openings so they can see them, a light pop upside the head when their guard is down. This guy wanted to annihilate me. I had to fight him like a black belt --- I kinda eyeballed the head instructor afterwards and he couldn't look straight at me cause he was too busy trying not to laugh!!!

I guess every school has "that guy" that wants to show up the instructor!
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DLopez · Purple Belt

There's so many rammifications of an incident like this, and most of them are bad... someone could've gotten hurt, the injured party could sue...

but another more subtle effect is the confidence factor (or loss of it) from the rest of the students had our instructor tapped out to this guy. Never mind that the instructor "allowed" the student to start off in a superior position, with a choke hold no less! If the students had seen that our instructor had to submit, then what would that say to the rest of the students about the effectiveness of the techniques he's trying to teach, or his teaching ability?

I guess in short, a stunt like that could jeopardize an instructor's livelihood by casting doubt in the students' minds whether they are being taught something that "works" in real life.
_________________
Dean
Dahn Boh Nim - Black-Brown Belt
Kuk Sool Won
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow." - James Dean

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