Simulating Gun Defense

The BB of C · Black Belt

This is an idea a friend of mine and I had a while ago but never actually got around to it.

To practice disarming an attacker's handgun with a loaded airsoft gun or dart gun.
The theory is that we would have to make sure were doing everything in perfect form as well as fast otherwise we would get shot. For example, I would have to move my head (or body) out of the way, grab the gun, bend it towards the thumb, all while keeping the nozzle pointed away from me. Ideally ending with it pointing back towards him or thrown on the ground behind me. While I was doing that, he'd try to shoot me. If I got hit, I did something wrong, telegraphed or wasn't fast enough.

Initially I can think of two problems this might have.
Airsoft pistols are shaped similarly to real pistols but I haven't actually held a pistol in a long time so I don't know how the weight of the gun compares. And though I'm not dumb enough to not wear a facemask, airsoft guns at close range can still sting pretty good.
Most dart guns are shaped nothing like actual guns. Thus the mechanics of disarming a dart gun might be different from a real gun even though I would still need to do everything listed above in order to not get shot.

What do you all think? Is it a good idea for practice? If so, which would you suggest we use (airsoft pistol or dart gun). Or should we stick to rubber guns?

P.S.
When I took Judo, my teacher told me that in a real situation, regardless of how much practice we have, chances of survival are 50/50 and I believe him.

JusticeZero · Black Belt

I'd think you should stick to the rubber gun, myself.
My suspicion is that the issue with the disarm is in getting the setup for it, not with the actual disarm itself. A lot of disarms i've seen rely on the attacker to be doing things that are a bit silly for them to be doing... like sitting in unarmed combat range holding a gun out, and often holding the gun wrong on top of that. I mean, how many hands is the gun user holding the gun with when you do your disarm, for one thing? Are they using proper stance? Or just holding it out in one hand?
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Montana · Pre-Black Belt

First of all, any training for a gun defense is better than none.

I use a .22, .357 revolver or 9mm semi-auto in our gun defense training. I remove the cylinder on the revolvers, and magazine on the 9mm and make darn sure myself and at least one other gun oriented person in the room verifies it is empty before use.

I teach small classes so it's easy to watch everyone go thru their techniques.
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Groinstrike · Pre-Black Belt

We use the orange rubber gun or a old pellet gun that is shaped like a 1911. The nice thing about the pellet gun is that you can cock the gun, while not having it loaded so it makes a very noticiable sound when the trigger is pulled. This way if the gun goes off we can see where the muzzle is pointed, muzzle control being one of the keys to gun defense. One problem with this, the Uke must be careful because a large amount of the gun disarms that we work are actually meant to break the trigger finger of the attacker, so the person holding the gun must be careful not to have his finger in the trigger guard when being disarmed.

albeaver89 · Yellow Belt

At my dojo we use rubber guns at first then move up to airsoft guns of all varieties, we used a shot gun a aotumatic a hand gun and two guns. The guns are loaded but it just stings when you do it wrong and usualy its sensie holding the guns. We do diffrent ranges and diffrent senarios.

bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

I'd say go with the airsoft guns. No, the weight won't be there most likely, but they will shoot those little projectiles, and that will give you the best feedback you can ask for in gun disarm training. I would also maybe find a good piece of headgear for your partner to wear for when you strike him. I say this because strikes should be a part of your disarm.

My DT parnter and I used to do this with rubber band guns. Not even close to a real bullett, but if you are getting tagged by rubber bands, then you ain't dodging no bulletts any time soon.
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The BB of C · Black Belt

This has gotten some great responses. Now let's see if I can understand all of this.

JusticeZero says I should stick to rubber guns.
Montana has an even better idea. But I don't believe I have the resources. I'm also not sure which one of what I had he preferred. Also I'm not sure if just hearing the click go off would be enough. I'm worried that we wouldn't always be able to tell where the muzzle was pointing when the trigger was pulled without there being contact of some kind.
Groinstrike had a good idea with practicing techniques that break the trigger finger.
Albeaver89 uses airsoft guns.
Bushido_Man96 seemed to like the airsoft guns too.

But ultimately it seems that I should be waiting until I'm in the presence of someone more qualified to practice these kinds of techniques. The only answer that doesn't point to this to some degree is Montana's answer where he says something along the lines of, "Any gun training is better than none."

What do you think? The question now is should I keep trying or should I wait? All we've got to go off on so far is some better looking YouTube videos and practicing what we see. When we practiced with each other we added resistance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilLTA4p4MMw&list=PL659509D65579BEC6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbC17nXjyS0&list=PL659509D65579BEC6

bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

I'd say you are on the right track. The important thing to look at when you practice is to have the shooter PULL THE TRIGGER and see where and if you get hit. If you keep getting hit, then something isn't working.

Also, keep the techniques simple. Don't get elaborate and fancy; your dealing with life and death here. Also, think about where you will be directing the muzzle of the weapon, and who might get caught in the crossfire.
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MasterPain · Black Belt

I'm uploading a video, I'll put up here in a few minutes. So many disarm videos are a simple grab and take it away type thing. It's a nice idea, but trained live rarely works that way. If it does, great. If they try to retain the weapon, you need to be causing some pain to create advantage, all while controlling the direction of the muzzle, and trying to gain an advantage in leverage. Sound hard? It is. If you are having 100 percent success, your uke is being to easy on you.
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bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

Agreed, MP, and very valid points. Gun disarms are a struggle, a tug-of-war in the worst sense. That's why I say striking should be a part of gun disarming. Hit them as hard as you can, as fast as you can, as many times as you can so they let got of that gun.
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