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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:01 pm Post subject: Since When Did Size Matter?? |
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So, therefore, while opinions differ whenever this topic is ever discussed, that I'm not seeking here whether one's opinion(s) are right or wrong or indifferent, no matter what side of the fence one stands. That we just respect each others opinion(s) through and through.
I'm quite positive of several things.
1) This topic has been discussed within the many threads found here in KF.
2) That there are many opinions, of which, there's no favorable consensus among KF's members whenever this topic is discussed.
3) This topic could've fit in many different KF Forums, somehow and someway, albeit, I've choose this forum because it could fit in many KF forums, so why not here?!?!
Here's the topic: Does Size Matter In A Fight??
Imho, NO. Size doesn't matter in a fight. Why??
I stopped following UFC and the like venues whenever weight divisions took up camp across the landscape slowly, but surely. UFC entered weight classes at UFC 12, and we've just finished UFC 246.
If memory serves me correctly, the UFC was designed, at least in its beginning, MA style VS MA style, with no weight classes whatsoever; a single elimination kind of round-robin ruled the comings and goings of UFC. Whether UFC was designed to highlight Gracie Jujitsu or not, is quite immaterial. UFC 1-11 were no weight classes; mano a mano.
Then UFC changed its mission from mano a mano to more weight classes, which means more fights, which means more titles, which means more money for Dan White. The MA style VS MA style died unceremoniously at UFC as well as the many other venues.
Still, I'm a staunch proponent of the mindset that size doesn't matter.
Why even darken the doors of any MA school of any MA style if that practitioner believes that size does matter?!?!? Why??
Practitioners believe in their teacher(s)...practitioners believe in their styles founder...practitioners believe in their style...and if that's true, then size shouldn't matter after the dust settles down.
Perhaps whenever a practitioner speaks that size does matter is because they've only the measured confidence in themselves only on the floor but never off the floor due to their own limitations towards their lack of knowledge and experience that's consistent and effective.
Why train in any codified style of the MA if size matters?? Let me say this, whenever your attacked on the streets by someone who's heck bent on hurting you, or worse, killing you, just what are you going to do when a much bigger and/or stronger thug wants to cause you harm to the Nth degree, with no remorse whatsoever!?!?!
To name just a few examples...
Imagine if MA schools didn't teach bully awareness, and all it possess, to a our children classes, that picked on child will not have the necessary tools to defend themselves against the bully. What else is a bully but a bigger child who's a bigger threat due to the bullies size?? If size matters, that we shouldn't teach these types of classes to our children students.
Or the classes that teach rape prevention to women students. Aren't the rapists oftentimes, but not always, much bigger and stronger than their victims!?!?! If possible at all, no sense in teaching those classes if size matters for those students.
On the streets, one can't decide whom will attack you and/or your loved ones. No matter who it is that's before you, you must deal with it to the best of your abilities.
You can't ever choose your attacker(s), but your attacker(s) can always choose you. Once your attacker(s) choose you, you've got to size up your situation because you've got to make some very serious decisions immediately; your life just might depend on it.
I do get the other side of the fence's argument because many of the things to consider are viable and tangible. Albeit, at any given time, one's got no choice, and that might mean that size just don't matter; one's got to do whatever one has to do.
If size matters, then might I suggest that that individual leave said MA school because everything that ones being taught, and being trained in, is at best a muted effort and ineffective across the board. Didn't one come to a MA school to learn how to effectively defend themselves against their attacker...no matter said size...or did one come to a MA school to get a cool uniform and belt!?!?!
Once again, to me, size will never matter to me, and in that, that's what I've been taught, and that's what I teach my students. I'm effective, and I will not allow size to dictate to me whatsoever.
The floor is open!! Please let's not us forget my plea in the opening paragraph.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Size and weight only matter in the context of sport competition. Weight-classes were decided for the purpose of the contest to be as fair as possible. On the other hand, notions of “fairness” and “clean vs dirty” do not apply if the context is personal self-defense.
The purpose of martial arts aimed at self-defense is to allow a person to become able to effectively defend themselves to their maximum potential against a bigger or stronger attacker. This is why it takes training and practise. People are many times more likely to be attacked by someone who is bigger, not the other way around. The only exception to this is if there are weapons involved and with groups. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to disagree with you, here, Bob. It seems, to me, that you are conflating "size matters" with "size trumps training," just judging by your reasoning that if someone believes that size matters then they shouldn't bother with martial arts. That isn't really an accurate connection to make, in my opinion, and I think that to say that size DOESN'T matter can be doing a disservice to one's students by not effectively communicating the importance of training to overcome a size difference, or the fact that starting training doesn't instantly overcome size difference. You can teach methods for doing it as a standard part of your curriculum, but it's still up to the student to take responsibility for their training and the effort and time they put in, and without a proper understanding of the context and possible hurdles they are training for, how can they be effectively motivated to train appropriately?
Why does size matter? Because any given level of technique and tactics can only overcome so much size and brute strength. As you improve in martial arts, the amount of size and brute strength you can overcome increases, but there is still a tipping point for most of that journey. You can't tell a 90lb white belt that size doesn't matter, because they haven't had the training to overcome a size/strength disadvantage. Even a 90lb blue or green belt should understand that, while they might be able to overcome some size/strength difference with their training, there still comes a point where they can't. Sure, they can beat that 120lb untrained person, even if they are grappling, but they may not be ready for that 200lb untrained person, yet.
Even once you have reached a point where you have the technique and tactics down so well that you can use them to overcome an opponent of any size, that doesn't mean you will always be successful in doing so, depending on what happens in the fight, because fights are chaotic. One mistake can leave you in a bad position where the opponent's strength or sheer size can stop you from doing anything, technique or no. Understanding this possibility is vital to ingraining a sense of urgency and the right mindset to do everything to avoid such problems.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Size ABSOLUTELY matters. So does strength. So does agility/athleticism. They’re all physical attributes. Every physical attribute matters.
If it didn’t matter, we wouldn’t have to alter anything. Technique nor strategy. If I’m fighting a guy a foot taller (with proportionately long reach), the stuff that works with someone my size isn’t going to be the best bet. I’m going to have to get inside that reach and take it away from him. If I’m fighting a guy smaller than me, I probably want to keep him at a range that’s too long for him but not me. This is for striking.
In grappling, techniques need to be adapted as well as strategy. When I was wrestling, I wouldn’t wrestle a tall lanky guy the same way I’d wrestle a stocky guy. My takedown and throws selection would change somewhat, as well as my technique because leverage points (not sure what exactly to call it) would change.
If I outweigh and out-muscle someone, I’m going to make them “carry my weight.“ I’m not going to go Sugar Ray Leonard on them; I’m going to go Butterbean. If I’m at a reach disadvantage, I’m going Mike Tyson. Reach and strength, Sugar Ray Leonard.
Training with a variety of partners teaches the subtlety and I guess gross changes that must be made for different fighters. Some people are like an enormous tree that needs to be chopped down. Others need to be taken out like a wrecking ball.
But above all that, the situation and environment dictates what can and needs to be done more than anything else. A drunken idiot family member acting stupid gets a different response than the guy who tried to pull a gun on me. And the way the guy tried to pull his gun dictated everything. A few feet further would’ve gotten a different response than a few feet closer.
All physical attributes must be taken into consideration. The less physical attributes one has, the smarter and harder they must train to level the playing field. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps I'm being misunderstood here; that's my fault entirely across the board...please forgive me for that.
Whenever I say, size doesn't matter, I mean that no matter the size of ones attacker, on the streets, away from the comfort of ones dojo or sport competition, you, as the MAist, and as the one being attacked, must protect yourself, right then and there, because your attacker just choose YOU!!
YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE FOR YOUR ATTACKER!! The attacker has already taken care of that for you. If your attacker is much bigger/stronger than you, then you better deal with it one way or another.
When your attacker, on the streets, is that behemoth standing right before you, hell bent to destroy you, and all that, this, right there...right now...size doesn't matter; that ship has already sailed.
Get it on or get gone!! Time for the MAist to dig deeply within their training, knowledge, and experience, with that behemoth standing before you. That way, once the dust finally settles, you're still standing, and not your attacker.
Btw, I've never provided a disservice to my students ever, and I take great offense to the implication, directly or indirectly!! Surely, everyone knows me here better than that, that I'd never do anything to harm my students in any shape, way, and/or form.
Man, I hope I explained what I meant about "size doesn't matter" better this time. I highly respect what Noah and JR are saying because I wholeheartedly agree with you both across the board. When an overpowering size/strength shows up, and gets in my face, and wants to break me in half, size no longer matters to me...it's already here, and there's nothing else I can do about it; I'm going to deal with it quite harshly and with cause...because size doesn't matter...anymore...to me!!
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Perhaps I'm being misunderstood here; that's my fault entirely across the board...please forgive me for that.
Whenever I say, size doesn't matter, I mean that no matter the size of ones attacker, on the streets, away from the comfort of ones dojo or sport competition, you, as the MAist, and as the one being attacked, must protect yourself, right then and there, because your attacker just choose YOU!!
YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE FOR YOUR ATTACKER!! The attacker has already taken care of that for you. If your attacker is much bigger/stronger than you, then you better deal with it one way or another.
When your attacker, on the streets, is that behemoth standing right before you, hell bent to destroy you, and all that, this, right there...right now...size doesn't matter; that ship has already sailed.
Get it on or get gone!! Time for the MAist to dig deeply within their training, knowledge, and experience, with that behemoth standing before you. That way, once the dust finally settles, you're still standing, and not your attacker.
Btw, I've never provided a disservice to my students ever, and I take great offense to the implication, directly or indirectly!! Surely, everyone knows me here better than that, that I'd never do anything to harm my students in any shape, way, and/or form.
Man, I hope I explained what I meant about "size doesn't matter" better this time. I highly respect what Noah and JR are saying because I wholeheartedly agree with you both across the board. When an overpowering size/strength shows up, and gets in my face, and wants to break me in half, size no longer matters to me...it's already here, and there's nothing else I can do about it; I'm going to deal with it quite harshly and with cause...because size doesn't matter...anymore...to me!!
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Now I understand what you meant. And no, I never thought for a second that you were doing a disservice to anyone. I knew it was simply a matter of miscommunication/misunderstanding on everyone’s part.
When someone’s significantly bigger, stronger, faster, et al, everything changes. Everything except one thing - you do what you need to do to get out of there. You do it as quickly and instinctively as possible. If that means fighting, talking, running, whatever. The situation always dictates the course of action. All you can ever do is be proactive and try your best to keep yourself and those close to you away from a situation before it starts. Within reason, of course.
If someone’s going to attack me, size doesn’t matter. I’m going to proverbially “die simply because I ran out of bullets in the gunfight.” No way am I going to let someone beat on me solely because he’s bigger. Or stronger. Or crazier. Nor any other -er. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Since When Did Size Matter?? |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Here's the topic: Does Size Matter In A Fight??
Imho, NO. Size doesn't matter in a fight. Why?? |
I'm of the opinion that size is one of many factors to be considered when dealing with a self-defense situation. It is a factor that does matter, like all the other matters.
I think we tend to try to box things up, to make them nice and neat and easy to point out and compare. Things like size, speed, strength (which is not always the same as size), mentality, and training. The fact of the matter is that in any situation in which we might have to defend ourselves, we would be remiss to dismiss any one of those factors, and probably more I'm not thinking off.
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| I stopped following UFC and the like venues whenever weight divisions took up camp across the landscape slowly, but surely. UFC entered weight classes at UFC 12, and we've just finished UFC 246. |
It was an interesting thing when the UFC started out, for sure. I think we tend to forget who started the UFC (Gracies) and why it was started (put their style out there to the world). Fought in a cage, on a mat, and some wore gis, and some didn't. At the end of the thing, we tended to only thought about who won, and not about those who lost along the way (originally being a single elimination tournament). The one's that lost along the way weren't necessarily bad fighters, and it's important to remember that.
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| If memory serves me correctly, the UFC was designed, at least in its beginning, MA style VS MA style, with no weight classes whatsoever; a single elimination kind of round-robin ruled the comings and goings of UFC. Whether UFC was designed to highlight Gracie Jujitsu or not, is quite immaterial. UFC 1-11 were no weight classes; mano a mano. |
Yes, all valid points (except the round-robin aspect; it was single elimination).
| Quote: |
| Then UFC changed its mission from mano a mano to more weight classes, which means more fights, which means more titles, which means more money for Dan White. The MA style VS MA style died unceremoniously at UFC as well as the many other venues. |
This, I believe, was a business decision more than anything. If the UFC was to survive as a venue, these changes were inevitable. It's also important to note how MMA began to evolve as the sport matured. Fighters realized that they had to at least learn how to defend on the ground, and ground fighters realized that they had to put together some semblance of a stand-up game. I honestly believe that whether or not the original rules had changed, this change would have occurred, just because most competitors are smart and realize what adjustments have to be made in order to stay competitive.
And this is where the rubber truly meets the road. When the talent levels of the athletes start to get closer and closer together, and the UFC matured into more of a professional venue, the addition of weight classes was really inevitable. If you watch any competitive combat sport for any length of time, you see why weight divisions become necessary.
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Still, I'm a staunch proponent of the mindset that size doesn't matter.
Why even darken the doors of any MA school of any MA style if that practitioner believes that size does matter?!?!? Why??
Practitioners believe in their teacher(s)...practitioners believe in their styles founder...practitioners believe in their style...and if that's true, then size shouldn't matter after the dust settles down.
Perhaps whenever a practitioner speaks that size does matter is because they've only the measured confidence in themselves only on the floor but never off the floor due to their own limitations towards their lack of knowledge and experience that's consistent and effective.
Why train in any codified style of the MA if size matters?? Let me say this, whenever your attacked on the streets by someone who's heck bent on hurting you, or worse, killing you, just what are you going to do when a much bigger and/or stronger thug wants to cause you harm to the Nth degree, with no remorse whatsoever!?!?! |
Now, to cover the whole "does size matter" question from the aspect of self-defense...
What we have to take into account is the difference in goals between a UFC/MMA fight and a self-defense situation.
In an MMA fight, the goal is to stay in the ring for the duration of the fight (whether it goes the time/round limit, or ends due to KO/submission/stoppage), and most importantly, to WIN.
The goal of self-defense is to, 1. never get into a situation to begin with, and 2. to defend yourself successfully so you can get away, get help, call authorities, etc. We hope that self-defense doesn't last as long as a UFC fight does, at least I know that I do. I'm a simple man, not blessed with the time to train as much as UFC fighters do, nor do I have that youth anymore. And if I have to face up with a 6'6" 260 lb dude that wants to hurt me, then my train of thought isn't to "go the distance and knock him out." I'm going to cheat, a lot, and do what I can to get out of the situation, and hopefully not go to jail.
The two things have two entirely different goals, and two entirely different ways of achieving them.
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To name just a few examples...
Imagine if MA schools didn't teach bully awareness, and all it possess, to a our children classes, that picked on child will not have the necessary tools to defend themselves against the bully. What else is a bully but a bigger child who's a bigger threat due to the bullies size?? If size matters, that we shouldn't teach these types of classes to our children students.
Or the classes that teach rape prevention to women students. Aren't the rapists oftentimes, but not always, much bigger and stronger than their victims!?!?! If possible at all, no sense in teaching those classes if size matters for those students. |
Yes, we should teach these things. We just can't teach them in the same way as a UFC fight takes place.
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| On the streets, one can't decide whom will attack you and/or your loved ones. No matter who it is that's before you, you must deal with it to the best of your abilities. |
Yes, absolutely. Just not like a UFC fight.
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| I do get the other side of the fence's argument because many of the things to consider are viable and tangible. Albeit, at any given time, one's got no choice, and that might mean that size just don't matter; one's got to do whatever one has to do. |
This is the same thing I tell my boys. My wife and I are not tall people, and the likelihood that our boys will be tall is not good. 5'10 or 5'11 would be awesome! When they complain about someone being bigger, I tell them they just have to get over it, because it isn't going to change right that instant.
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| Once again, to me, size will never matter to me, and in that, that's what I've been taught, and that's what I teach my students. I'm effective, and I will not allow size to dictate to me whatsoever. |
This is just different for everyone, and for those it affects, it's a mental hurdle to have to get over. I've trained with you, Bob, and I'd consider you to be a big guy yourself. You're taller than me, and have strong hands, broad shoulders; I'd consider you a good sized dude to have to be in a fight with. It's just something to think about.
This topic has come up before, but it is always a good one when we have it! Great topic, Bob!
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Solid post, Brian!!
Yeah, my UFC analogy was both bad and poorly written; I missed the mark completely in making my point. If you look up 2 posts from this post, that post of mine what I meant, even though that was still poorly written, but it more conveyed my point of this topic.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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You are definitely correct in that you don't get to choose your attacker. And attackers like that are typically predators, and they seek out certain prey; those who seem vulnerable, which, at times, these attackers misconstrue as being someone smaller.
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Nevinyrral
Blue Belt
Joined: 16 Jul 2010
Posts: 295
Location: Poland
Styles: Karate
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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For me size does matter.
You can overcome size difference with skill but only to some extent.
Also your attacker/opponent might also have some skill.
So in the end it goes to what the situation is.
Remember, you might have great skill, but one lucky punch from a guy outweighting you by 100 and you are done.
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on the post.
