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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
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Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 412
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would argue age is a moot point in most regards. We should remember that Kanō Jigorō founded Judo at the age of 22. Similarly, many of the pioneers of Karate that founded their own systems were in their thirties. Today, one can be a Godan, fifth-degree, by the age of Thirty-Five. For most systems that is the end of their technical syllabus. We just think of founders as aged men because of memetics, and the fact that after the explosion of styles through the 30s to the 50s, the big camps were established. Then factionalism began, and so starting up as a young, independent, became difficult in the face of the well-established styles. Becoming a founder became associated with the concept of McDojo.

Thus, I would argue against stressing extant rank and age in making this decision. Rather, you need to have a hard look at the experience and knowledge you have, and whether those resources give you a way to create something novel.

Bushido_Man and Nevinyrral have already asked some solid questions you should be considering. I would also agree with Wastelander than you should be wary of taking anything from fiction wholeheartedly. After all:

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness."

It will cast a shadow over all your future efforts unless you transform expectations, and take ownership of the word and idea. Taking ownership means doing so with ideas that have gravitas and speak to others. If you cannot do that then you should appeal to the power of originality: name it something of your own creation or after a principle you believe in.

With regards to the question of competition, that all depends on your end goal. The short answer is that competition is a great form of advertisement if, and it is a big If, you have a good showing. A poor showing, especially one which shows up your ignorance or flaws, will kill your idea before it starts.

Now, discerning customers are not going to take your art seriously as a form of self-defence if it does not perform in full-contact. However, you do not necessarily need competition to provide proof your contact training is meaningful, nor do you need competition success for that either. Become educated, look at what others in the world of Full-contact and Self-defence are doing, and copy it. How well your teaching serves your student is going to be the proof of its validity.

With that said, few people coming into martial arts are discerning. They do not really know what they want when they join up beside vague ideas about what Martial Arts can do for them. Physical fitness, confidence, and self-defence being the general trio. If they like you and your instruction, and you give them a broad range of opportunities: they will find their own way to want they want. Your responsibility is to decide what you want your teachings to provide: competition success or self-defence being the broad questions.

Personally, I would advise competing just to test your own validity. Can you make function the teachings you intend to pass on? Really, what is the testing ground you are using to determine your systematic approach to training? If your option is competition, then use competition.

Finally:

1. That is a principle found in most striking arts. Single-Knuckle Strikes, Ridge-Hand strikes, and the use of the Elbow and ball of the foot all fall into that. Focusing on that idea is a dead-end unless you contextualise the idea with realistic tactics which allow that strategy to suceed.

2. Even in Wudang and Shaolin, not all students study the entire catalogue of the cultivation arts. They focus on what is relevant to their fighting arts. It sounds as though you have what you intend to focus on realised, however, the traditional conditioning arts are time-consuming, exhaustive, and often boring.

From your basic premise, I have to argue you are not offering anything that striking arts with an empahsis on traditional conditioning do not offer. Uechi-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu, Muay Boran, or Wai Jia Quen'Fa. Systems which can be found around the world. That is going to be your main barrier.

What are you going to do that is not already in existence and possesses an pedigree?
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Himokiri Karate
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 215


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting my own Karate style...I need help! Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:
Alright I am going for it, my style is going to be my username. The principle of it is in my signature and I believe it with all my heart, with everything that I am that the principle of this style is solid. From the 72 shaolin skills, this styles moves can be trained and nurtured. Nothing outlandish, its physical and focus is on conditioning of wrist, fingers and forearms.

However I need help as to how I can be not successful but also legitimate in my presentation. For example, should I fight in a karate tournament? Do I need to prove the style in a specific way?


I would ask these questions:

1. What is your prior training experience? Years, rank, accomplishments, etc.

2. What is your reason for starting your "style," what is it rooted or grounded in (principles, goals, etc). Why should I, as a prospective student, give up what I do and follow you? Or, as a new student, what do you offer that is not readily available from someone who is already established in one of the already established and trusted styles?

3. What will the curriculum consist of? Forms? If so, from what style are you taking them? Or are you creating your own? If this is the case, why, and what is the reason for creating new forms? Do they have applications, or are they just a series of moves strung together for another reason?

4. Is there a self-defense base, and will it be a regular part of the training?

5. Do you have some sort of creed, manifesto, or layout of goals and objectives that are too be accomplished through the training of your style? What can I expect out of training?

I'm sure I can think of some more if I mull it over for a while, but these are a good start, I think. Can you answer each of these questions in regards to creating your new style?


Sorry for late reply and thank you for the question and I am very happy that this is an engaging response. The answers are as follow bellow:

1. Boxing, various Karate/kung fu and sambo/judo. I have done some boxing exhibition. Would like to compete in amateur and pro.

2. I would say the principle is in my signature and I hold it with great conviction. I say a perspective student should join my style because I will teach them accuracy Hojo undo training to develop their physical attribute. Folks coming from a grappling style can learn Hiraken, ipponken and nukite which will nicely transition in to takedowns in case they miss. The hands/fingers and the entire body gets hardened up which helps with injury prevention.

3. The strong/powerful movements of karate. Importance is keeping the hands up to protect the head. Much like boxing/kickboxing but the hand conditioning allows them to hit hard. The katas are freestyle and its based on proper mechanic and not going fast. Students learn the traditional karate move and they can come up with their own katas. Much like shadow boxing.


4. It is self defense based, the body has to be conditioning. The forearm and fist have to be very strong. Strikes are based on hitting smaller target which develops accuracy. Boxing combos for sure but also tons of palm strikes and other barehanded strikes.

5. The end goal is to develop a powerful and well abled body that can deliver accurate strikes. The act of developing accuracy must mean the act of developing concentration. Students cannot just power through their move and throw haymakers like they are brawlers. In fact, this style is the extreme antagonist to brawling punches that lack focus and concentration. My students will learn a throw in clinch. The dojo of Himokiri karate MUST have Hojo Undo equipment. This is not negotiable, the training is tough and one must prepare for endless repetition and a life of mundane. Sparring is controlled and with safety glasses due to finger strikes being allowed.


Because training is tough, physical and daunting as well as mundane. The students will have access to meditation for nervous system recovery and to renew their spirits. Meditation classes are part of the training and there is no extra fee since the idea is to encourage students to show up.
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RW
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 344


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting my own Karate style...I need help! Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:
Alright I am going for it, my style is going to be my username. The principle of it is in my signature and I believe it with all my heart, with everything that I am that the principle of this style is solid. From the 72 shaolin skills, this styles moves can be trained and nurtured. Nothing outlandish, its physical and focus is on conditioning of wrist, fingers and forearms.

However I need help as to how I can be not successful but also legitimate in my presentation. For example, should I fight in a karate tournament? Do I need to prove the style in a specific way?


What a fascinating concept.

I am not saying this is a bad idea at all. Hey, for all we know you're going to create the new Kyokushin, or whatever.

I just want to try to poke holes into your idea, NOT to make you doubt, but to make you think of the hard questions now (sooner) rather than later when it's more urgent to answer them.

1) Why would anyone train your new style rather than a very well established traditional style such as Shotokan, or a more practicality-oriented style such as Kudo?

2) When the guy who created Shaolin Kempo did so, he received A LOT of criticism, because of two things: 1) He gave himself rank in his new style (I am not sure how this is supposed to work) and 2) He modified some traditional katas for his new system and karate people said he had no authority to do so. How would you deal with said criticisms? What would you do differently?

3) Have you defined your market? Kids' parents won't care if you are a direct pupil of Gichin Funakoshi himself or if you left a strip mall generic "karate" school with a brown belt and now you opened your dojo, as long as he can leave junior there and learn some discipline, maybe. Then on the other extreme you have some people who will ask you about your lineage, qualifications and all sorts of hard questions, for example, what are the 72 shaolin skills and how did you incorporate them to your karate? Then you have many kinds of people in-between those two. Who is your target market?

4) A bit similar to # 3 above - are you going to be sport karate oriented? fitness oriented? self defense oriented?

5) How are you going to develop the curriculum?

Last but not least, how will you stay connected to the broader world of martial arts? For example Joe's shotokan school may be affiliated to a shotokan organization out there, or maybe JKA or something. TKD schools are sometimes affiliated to the kukkiwon, etc. How do you play to stay sharp yourself and to keep updating your skills? How will you keep your school from being a silo to other schools?

This could be a really cool thing, we may be witnessing the birth of a new style, I just thought I'd ask some hard questions now to get your mind going and make it smoother for you once you actually start getting this going, shall you decide to do it.
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RW
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd suggest you avoid this pitfall:

Many modern kempo schools here in the US (american kempo, shaolin kempo, kenpo (with N), etc seem to be very laissez-fare. They change their own katas several times a year (yes, your kata XYZ may be revisited and changed after a couple months) and they even change advice - in the 90s they'd have told you to kick with the instep, now they tell you to kick with the shin like in muay thai, now they're trying to teach people to check kicks like they do in MMA but they don't really know how to, etc.

Make sure your curriculum looks well thought out and not like you're just making stuff up, like so many kempo schools out there. I know kempo is not karate, or it sort of is, but this pitfall applies to any modern style that doesn't quite adhere to very traditional methods (e.g. "Mas Oyama taught this kata like this, so it will stay like this")
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Himokiri Karate
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting my own Karate style...I need help! Reply with quote

Nevinyrral wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:

However I need help as to how I can be not successful but also legitimate in my presentation. For example, should I fight in a karate tournament? Do I need to prove the style in a specific way?


This is always a good idea, although you would need to try diffrent formats like full light and semi contact, kata competitions. Also compete not only in karate tournaments but for example mma.

I would have few questions for you though:

1. Do you have your own dojo and students.
2. Are those students ready and willing to continue training after you establish new style.
3. What would be a governing body for you.
4. Something more personal like your age and where you live.

Anyways good luck.


PS
Isnt himokiri karate used in Grappler Baki


Yes, over a decade ago we had a cobra kai dojo in my hometown. So I was like why not?

It was karate/kickboxing but honestly, I think I better not go through with it. I am just asking for trouble. Cobra Kai is different because its a fictional style rooted in realistic setting while Baki is supernatural.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I am contradicted when it comes to the idea of proving a style in competition. That can be a good way to get exposure, but most competitions are about skill and physical talent, especially at the higher levels. A really physically gifted athlete will tend to excel in competition, regardless of what style he or she came out of. There was a lot of talk Shotokan when Lyoto Machida was big in MMA, but his success in MMA probably had more to do with him being an incredible athlete than a demonstration of how good Shotokan is in MMA.


I absolutely agree. Plus, you can be an excellent instructor without being terribly skilled at applying things under pressure, yourself, or having a competition record. Unfortunately, competitive success is still the majority of people's method of measuring the effectiveness of a martial art, for better or worse.


Good points.
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Himokiri Karate
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I am contradicted when it comes to the idea of proving a style in competition. That can be a good way to get exposure, but most competitions are about skill and physical talent, especially at the higher levels. A really physically gifted athlete will tend to excel in competition, regardless of what style he or she came out of. There was a lot of talk Shotokan when Lyoto Machida was big in MMA, but his success in MMA probably had more to do with him being an incredible athlete than a demonstration of how good Shotokan is in MMA.


I absolutely agree. Plus, you can be an excellent instructor without being terribly skilled at applying things under pressure, yourself, or having a competition record. Unfortunately, competitive success is still the majority of people's method of measuring the effectiveness of a martial art, for better or worse.


Good points.


Honestly, I came to the realization that its bad business. With rent and cost of running a place is difficult as it is. So I can do private lessons for the particular style of karate and get a bit of a cult following but it wont work as a dojo.

My gift of skills is to incorporate boxing in my martial arts. People love boxing and the fitness aspect does satisfy the business aspect since it has mass appeal. I now understand that most folks will be put off by moves like Ippon-ken, Hira-Ken and Nukite. Its just an odd skill to learn and doesn't burn much calories.
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Nevinyrral
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Joined: 16 Jul 2010
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Location: Poland
Styles: Karate

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Himokiri Karate"][quote="bushido_man96"]
Wastelander wrote:

Honestly, I came to the realization that its bad business. With rent and cost of running a place is difficult as it is. So I can do private lessons for the particular style of karate and get a bit of a cult following but it wont work as a dojo.


You could teach classes in some fitness centre or local gymnasium at the start, so it would be easier with rent and starting of.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Nevinyrral"][quote="Himokiri Karate"]
bushido_man96 wrote:
Wastelander wrote:

Honestly, I came to the realization that its bad business. With rent and cost of running a place is difficult as it is. So I can do private lessons for the particular style of karate and get a bit of a cult following but it wont work as a dojo.


You could teach classes in some fitness centre or local gymnasium at the start, so it would be easier with rent and starting of.

That possibility isn't favorable much at all, especially with major chains. Teaching the MA on their floors have a untold liability for all concerned. Insurance can squash any ideas before one can say the word 'squash', but doable. Perhaps more doable with a mom and pop shop, but still, liability across the board makes it less favorable.

Like they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained!!

Imho!!



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