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grenage
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 35


PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: Support knee pain when kicking (yes, I twist). Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Recently I've been having a lot of problems with kicking on one side only - kicking with my dominant leg (right) as the support foot. It is especially problematic with a roundhouse, and less so with a side thrust kick.

I've been doing karate for nearly three years, and this has only started appearing in the last six months. I think it might be a tight muscle/tendon down the inside of my leg; has anyone else experienced this sort of problem, and are there any stretches you could recommend?
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on which muscle you're talking about, I could be dealing with that. The location is higher up on the leg for me (aductor, iliacus, iliopsoas areas.)



There are a number of things I had to do to correct it, and even though I haven't had an episode in months, it threatens me if I don't do things correctly!

1. See your doctor and get referred to a sports therapist.
2. Stretch! You can look up a series of stretches for the areas affected. Perform them several times per day. Make sure you warm up the muscles before you stretch.
3. You can strengthen all the muscles in your hip region by doing leg lifts (including the glutes!) One cause for the problems I had could have been from lack of strength from all the other muscles... the iliacus (or whichever was affected) isn't all that large.
4. Warm up before you kick.
5. Lift that knee! I developed a nasty habit of swinging my leg out a bit too much to compensate for not lifting that knee as high as I should. This put extra strain on the muscles that I injured.
6. See your doctor!
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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grenage
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 35


PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there, and thanks for your reply.

It's funny you mention that, because I took up crossfit a little while ago, and leg lifts were something I'd never done before.

I had never struggled with anything so much in my life. I've got long slender figure, but I really struggled to lift straight legs off the ground.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2368


PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I cam make a suggestion.

If starting out with martial arts, when the body is already fully developed, there is a tendency to not have been introduced to the concept of turning out the hips sufficiently.

Ballet dancers spend alot of time on this aspect, from a very young age.

If martial artists miss out on this aspect, there will be in about three months, these issues:

1: Always poor performance when kicking.

2: Eventual injury to the hips and knees.

3: Clunking hips when kicking.

4: Pulled and sore muscles, including joints.

Having high kicks, is no guarantee that they are being done correctly or safely.

The only guarantee to doing kicks correctly and safely is totally knowing what kicking is about from inside and out, without guessing or assumptions.

I have witness many high ranking martial artist, that kick incorrectly.

Bruce Lee had (when alive) excellent hip turnout while performing his kicks, he also had exercises that benefitted this aspect, not much different than ballet dancers doing barre strength, flexibility and conditioning exercises.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grenage wrote:
It is especially problematic with a roundhouse, and less so with a side thrust kick.


Could it be how you're pivoting (or not pivoting) the standing leg?

Usually I see pain in the knee in students for two reasons:

1. they're trying to rotate the standing leg through the flat of the foot or heel. Your weight needs to be shifted onto your ball of your foot to rotate properly. Your heel doesn't have to come off the ground much but you do need to centre over that smaller pivoting area for a smooth rotation. Otherwise that extra torsion ends up trying to twist the knee joint.

2. students try to rotate through the leg and not through the hip. If you ask a new student to rotate their leg they concentrate on the ankle or foot and let that initiate the movement without engaging the upper leg. Again the knee is the weak link as rotation corkscrews up through the leg and it's not designed for rotational forces. Think about rotating the leg as one solid limb from that hip socket which is designed for rotation.

So two things you can do to correct the above. Firstly build up strength around the knee to resist rotation. A PT would be able to help you here but think squats, lunges, leg raises etc. Secondly is to really focus on the technique of the standing leg, not just the kicking leg. Concentrate on rotating from the hip socket and not lower down the leg.
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grenage
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 35


PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Alan,

My hips clunk like mad! Could you recommend and exercises to work on opening the hips? I'm taking up yoga once a week with my partner, in the hopes that things may improve.
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grenage
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 35


PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
So two things you can do to correct the above. Firstly build up strength around the knee to resist rotation. A PT would be able to help you here but think squats, lunges, leg raises etc. Secondly is to really focus on the technique of the standing leg, not just the kicking leg. Concentrate on rotating from the hip socket and not lower down the leg.


Thank you, - these are things I've recently started doing, so I am hoping that they will pay off in time. It's frustrating as you never really know if something will pan out for a while.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2368


PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grenage wrote:
Hi Alan,

My hips clunk like mad! Could you recommend and exercises to work on opening the hips? I'm taking up yoga once a week with my partner, in the hopes that things may improve.


No worries, I'm sure your clunks can be sorted out.

Give me a few days and I will get more in depth with what needs to be done with some recommend videos.

Take care.
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grenage
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 35


PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
grenage wrote:
Hi Alan,

My hips clunk like mad! Could you recommend and exercises to work on opening the hips? I'm taking up yoga once a week with my partner, in the hopes that things may improve.


No worries, I'm sure your clunks can be sorted out.

Give me a few days and I will get more in depth with what needs to be done with some recommend videos.

Take care.


Thanks, Alan; I'd really appreciate that.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2368


PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grenage wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
grenage wrote:
Hi Alan,

My hips clunk like mad! Could you recommend and exercises to work on opening the hips? I'm taking up yoga once a week with my partner, in the hopes that things may improve.


No worries, I'm sure your clunks can be sorted out.

Give me a few days and I will get more in depth with what needs to be done with some recommend videos.

Take care.


Thanks, Alan; I'd really appreciate that.
Yoga or any discipline for that matter, isn't going to miraculously cure clanking hips and aggravating knee joints.

Understanding fully why this happens and using proper techniques, when kicking and exercises will.

Here is just a primer on this subject to start you off on the right foot (excuse the pun)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=on1o6E9fqZA

Self evaluation on your turnout is important.

By using the clock method, with 12 being in front of you and 6 is behind you, then 9 will be to your left and 3 is to your right.

Standing at 12, using an inside to outside crescent kick with the left foot, with your right foot pointing at 1. Feel the clunk in your kicking hip?

Repeat the kick now with the right foot turned out to 2. The clunk should be a little less.

Repeat the kick now with the right foot turned out to 3.

Repeat to 4,5 and 6 if possible.

Starting from this one inside to outside cresent kick, with the left foot, while the supporting leg points from 1 to 6.

You should find that the more the supporting leg is pointing towards 1. the more your kicking hip will clunk and the more the supporting leg points towards 6 the clunk will disappear but instead the knee of the supporting leg will become affected with discomfort and eventually pain.

The supporting leg, needs to have the knee inline with the foot.

Turnout of the hips is paramount, otherwise the knee of the supporting leg will compensate for what the hip should be doing.

Try out this little test for yourself, and let's see if this works for you.

Also have a ballet teacher explain why turnouts are important, if one is available.

I'll check out some exercises and more explanations for you also.

This all might seem very complicated at the moment, but really, it is all easy, (like everything else) when you know how.

Take care grenage.
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