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Goju_boi
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2129
Location: Houston , Texas
Styles: Goju ryu , Kobudo , and just started Capoeira
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 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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very good posts,you truly are a dedicated martial artist
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White Warlock
Black Belt
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2662
Styles: See my Intro
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Goju, but i'm not alone here and i share my thoughts on things in the hopes my words help others to grow in the arts. In turn, i hope the words of others help me to grow.
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"When you are able to take the keys from my hand, you will be ready to drive." - Shaolin DMV Test
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elbows_and_knees
Black Belt
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1795
Styles: thai boxing, grappling
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| White Warlock wrote: |
| Well, before we go to those points, let me clarify i'm given the impression you do not practice the concepts presented above. These things aren't 'by default,' they are by design. Also, you are using a 'single' incident as base for your presentation of thoughts, when i'm sure you know that each incident is different. |
which is part of my point. Oftentimes, people make blanket statements about what happens in the street and what doesn't. As a bouncer, I can tell you that most of those blanket statements aren't so blanket.
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It is likely the throw was not performed with the 'intent' to cause injury. Judoists specialize in throwing, and in my opinion are the best at presenting devastating throws, but even they 'assist' their ukes in a fall so as to decrease injuries. These 'tournament/training' habits can undermine the effectiveness of techniques.
The acceleration in the throw, the angle of the drop, the point in the body of first contact, the hold or grip maintained while posing a throw... all these things can effect a serious injury when impacting a hard surface if that is not merely the intent, but within the execution of the technique. |
it's easy to have the intent to throw someone and hurt them, but actually pulling it off may at times be difficult. especially when the one you are throwing is much bigger, as was the case in this situation. a resisting, bigger person can kill the acceleration and also change the angle, which will in turn alter the body's point of impact.
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| My point being. The act alone is insufficient. There needs also to be intent and training, just like 'any' other martial art action. These actions are not 'symbiotically' attached to all martial artists, as not all martial artists are trained in grappling, throwing, takedowns, strikes, kicks, or energy redirection. |
agreed.
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| Which strengthens my argument, but only partly. It is a single incident, again, and the opponent may not have known any means to counter. |
which changes the situation. Once he tries to defend or counter, your tactic should change. pound on him, get up, etc.
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| And THIS is EXACTLY my point e&k. Or, at least one of my points. Most people do not think this way, and especially not ones who place competition skills on a pedestal. |
I was actually talking about this from a streetfighter / average citizen's point of view, not from another martial artist's. however it applies to us too. From a MA point of view though - in this case a sport fighter's point of view - not all of those things are necessary anyway, to be honest. can your pressure point drop someone? maybe. Can my left hook do the same thing? Also, it's not an issue of placing cimpetition skills on a pedestal so much as it is putting competition TRAINING METHODS on a pedestal. It's no secret that the average sport fighter trains much harder than the average TMA. What if the avg tma had the same conditioning, training and mentality of the sport fighter?
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| This said, there is still 'plenty' that is not presented in any competition, because the techniques, the actions, the tactics, are simply too damaging. As i stated in an earlier post, when the intent of a technique is to cause permanent bodily injury or death, we have a 'training' problem. This problem is in the conundrum of building your skills and your mindset so as to be able to apply lethal or near-lethal force when necessary, yet without direct application or the 'live' factor. Because of this, and mainly because of this, many sport practitioners of today are 'dismissing' these techniques as 'irrelevant.' |
not as irrelevant, but as impractical. I don't know how well an eye gouge works, because I can't try it in practice. There are several throws that involve the limb being broken as the throw is executed. I can't tell you how well they work, because I can't practice them without breaking someone's arm. Look at the lesson kano's guys taught to the various jujutsu groups back in the day. They didn't spar, and kano's guys mauled them. There are a lot of techniques that sound good in theory, but are hard to pull off in application. when you can't properly train a technique, that level of difficulty increases.
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| The hardest part of all this, unfortunately, is being able to differentiate between fact and fiction. Since these things cannot be readily applied without loss of students and time in jail, there lies within the practice the 'potential' for falsivity, sham, or simple delusion. |
bingo - and there is plenty of that out there. the greatest thing that mma has done is taught people to ask for proof. for too many years, people have merely belived they hype... master so and so was undefeated in challenge matches... grand master this and that could levitate and shoot ki blasts... and people buy into the fantasy
1. because they didn't know any better
2. because part of them wants to believe it
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| For example, many 'so-called' pressure points only work if a person is relaxed, if his muscles are not tense and certain vulnerable nerve centers are exposed because of this lack of contraction... lack of defensive contraction. Indeed, most of these 'so-called' pressure points disappear in a 'real' scenario, because many of the concepts are based on non-resisting opponents. |
exactly.
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First off, there is almost no place that is devoid of weapons, and of objects that 'even immoble' can influence the outcome of a conflict. Even the Sun presents itself as a useful tool.
Ignoring this, i'm sure you saw that less than half of the things i noted in the previous post even 'required' loose foreign objects. People still wear shirts, still have hair, still have reproductive organs. To see weapons as objects to be utilized is not seeing all the weapons available. The body, the limbs, the targets, the utilities presented on your own opponent, and the list goes on. |
I wasn't directly stating this in regard to something you said, however, no, there were no objects around - unless someone had time to reach in a garbage can and pull something out. you aren't allowed to take bottles into the street (beale street) and they clean the street daily, so there's really nothing on it at most given times. People do have shirts, and that is very viable. it is common here for someone to pull your shirt over your head so you can't see and can't swing. |
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Goju_boi
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2129
Location: Houston , Texas
Styles: Goju ryu , Kobudo , and just started Capoeira
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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"you aren't allowed to take bottles into the street (beale street) and they clean the street daily, so there's really nothing on it at most given times"
well you do have keys and possibly a pen
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2284
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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Half Full
White Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Alabama
Styles: Various
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
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I'm really not sure which Martial Art not already in use, would enhance the ability of a UFC/MMA competition fighter. Although, the different suggestions have made for some interesting studies. I don't think I'm qualified to give an opinion on UFC/MMA fighting so I won't try. However, I did enjoy the tangent taken, and subsequent debate on reality versus competition orientation. Several quality points were made on both fronts. That being said, I think I see eye to eye with White Warlocks' opinions. This is not to say that I think Warlock is right, just that we seem to share the same view in this instance. I wanted to add one point that I thought was somewhat omitted. A very large part of reality training, as I see it, requires mental reprogramming. For example, adrenaline. Do competition fighters fell adrenaline? Yes they do. Is it same same level as someone who is suprise attacked. No it is not. Emotional, chemical, and psychological responses to stimuli are rarely covered in conventional or sport oriented Martial Arts. Where in reality they play a vast role in the outcome of violent encounters with intent to harm. Victim thinking has to be overcome, and some of the mind's natural reactions have to be changed. These things can only be overcome by training precisely to overcome them, and it does take time. Anyways, I'm going on much to much here, I apoligioze for swaying, yet again, from the threads initial question. I was so impressed by the debate, I just thought I would chime in , thanks.
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elbows_and_knees
Black Belt
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1795
Styles: thai boxing, grappling
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Goju_boi wrote: |
"you aren't allowed to take bottles into the street (beale street) and they clean the street daily, so there's really nothing on it at most given times"
well you do have keys and possibly a pen |
you also have to reach in your pocket to get them. Fights tend to break out spur of the moment. If the keys aren't already in your hand, chances are you won't have time to get them. |
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elbows_and_knees
Black Belt
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1795
Styles: thai boxing, grappling
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Half Full wrote: |
| A very large part of reality training, as I see it, requires mental reprogramming. For example, adrenaline. Do competition fighters fell adrenaline? Yes they do. Is it same same level as someone who is suprise attacked. No it is not. Emotional, chemical, and psychological responses to stimuli are rarely covered in conventional or sport oriented Martial Arts. Where in reality they play a vast role in the outcome of violent encounters with intent to harm. Victim thinking has to be overcome, and some of the mind's natural reactions have to be changed. These things can only be overcome by training precisely to overcome them, and it does take time. |
Actually, I'm willing to bet that the brain doesn't know what type of stress you are undergoing - it simply knows that due to the current situation adrenaline must be produced. Also, something many people don't take into consideration is the fact that adrenaline rush actually saps your energy faster. They think of it as a permanent boost, which it is not. For this reason, sport fighters have an advantage in such a situation - it will take longer for their reserves to run dry due to their better conditioning.
In addition, how do you reprogram your thinking in the nice, cushiony dojo? sure, you are training for reality theoretically, but in reality, you are in your school, far from harm's way. |
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Half Full
White Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Alabama
Styles: Various
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:50 am Post subject: |
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You may be correct that the brain cannot differentiate between stressors, but I think it has been proven that it can assess variables in intensity. For instance, the thrill before competion, the adrenaline rush as it were, that is a response to the stimulation of competition. Most competitive fighters never really feel they are fighting for life or death. It is also obvious that the brain can produce chemical reactios at differing levels. For example, fear of facing parents over a bad grade, anxiety at work, or a mugger with a gun to your head. Each of these produce different levels of fear, with different emotional and physical reactions. I must admit that I do not know the science behind how long an adrenal rush lasts or what it does to a body's energy levels. Conditioning is something anyone should consider, to be at optimum health, but in most violent attacks by suprise or street violence fighting, usually, and I'm stressing usually here, these fights do not last long enough for adrenal drain to be a factor.
Your last point I completely agree with. I am definately a non traditionalist, and i don't think that mainstream dojo's offer the kinds of training we're debating. Thats another thread most likely. I believe that even thopugh we can't re-enact this sort of violence exactly, there are training methods to improve your reactions. Think about it, just knowing what your body will do in those situations is better than not knowing , so just in discussing mental and emotional chemical responses your readiness is already improved.
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Goju_boi
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2129
Location: Houston , Texas
Styles: Goju ryu , Kobudo , and just started Capoeira
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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you guys have been saying that adrenaline saps your energy,right?Well when you have an adrenaline rush don't you get more energy and strength?
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on the post.
