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UseoForce
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 938
Styles: Combat Hapkido, MMA/BJJ, Various others
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 Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Good posts elbows and knees. I wouldn't mind getting back to the topic tho 
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Goju_boi
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2129
Location: Houston , Texas
Styles: Goju ryu , Kobudo , and just started Capoeira
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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we should , but this has turned into a good conversation
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UseoForce
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 938
Styles: Combat Hapkido, MMA/BJJ, Various others
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:31 am Post subject: |
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rather, the same MMA debate I've seen a million other threads...
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Goju_boi
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2129
Location: Houston , Texas
Styles: Goju ryu , Kobudo , and just started Capoeira
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| UseoForce wrote: |
| rather, the same MMA debate I've seen a million other threads... |
yet we post everytime this debate comes up
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UseoForce
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 938
Styles: Combat Hapkido, MMA/BJJ, Various others
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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gotta represent!
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White Warlock
Black Belt
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2662
Styles: See my Intro
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| UseoForce wrote: |
| rather, the same MMA debate I've seen a million other threads... |
I don't agree. i think vastly different points were presented than the usual MMA discussions.
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UseoForce
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 938
Styles: Combat Hapkido, MMA/BJJ, Various others
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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same inconclusive result...did we really get anywhere?
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White Warlock
Black Belt
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2662
Styles: See my Intro
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| UseoForce wrote: |
| same inconclusive result...did we really get anywhere? |
Depends if anyone was open-minded.
If the intent was to argue a point merely to entrench oneself in one's beliefs, then no. However, if the intent was to discuss and present things for the goal of sharing 'differing' outlooks... perceptions that one or another feels may be missed, and those who examined these differing outlooks had indeed allowed themselves to absorb... to grow, then yes.
In the end, it is dependent upon the reader... not the debater. I like to think i am both.
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White Warlock
Black Belt
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2662
Styles: See my Intro
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Here is where i present how i feel. That these discussions have not been inconclusive. That these discussions progressed to tangible conclusions:
- The present focus is that of competition, with as few rules as possible. This is a good thing, and the first 'modern' presentation of it was that of Jigaro Kano, with Kano ju-jutsu (judo, as we know it today). Visiting various ju-jutsu schools, they promptly demonstrated that 'full-resistance' training enhances effectiveness.
- One important point to realize in this is that what Jigaro Kano presented was not altogether different than what most of the other ju-jutsu schools were studying. It was the 'manner' in which they studied that made the difference. The conditioning.
- Another important point to realize is that the other ju-jutsu schools were following the 'rules and guidelines' presented by Jigaro Kano during these inter-dojo competitions. Therefore, many of the more lethal and devastating techniques were simply not allowed. This throws heavily the weight of favor (a bit of a pun there) to that of conditioning, over that of technique.
- And while modern MMA competitions and studies present a 'newer' and more 'expansive' full-resistance set of studies, it still emphasizes the 'non-lethal.'
- And therein lies the conundrum of lethal studies. The lethal, the ugly and socially discouraged, but nonetheless possibly necessary, studies that can give you the edge in surviving a gross encounter. How to determine what is effectively lethal, and what is a hoax. What is real, and what is a pipe dream. Without the ability to apply these things in a 'full-resistance' setting, no guarantee of effectiveness is presented. Yet, there is common sense and experience.
- It is here where common sense, experience and diligence are needed. Just because there are a multitude of posers and dreamers, does not mean that all studies outside of MMA 'competition-applied' are ineffective. Abandoning such studies merely because there are posers out there presenting things that 'obviously' don't work... is a disservice to the hundreds, possibly thousands, of years of study that has already gone into the martial arts.
The conclusion i gather is this:
To ensure someone obtains as close to a complete study of the arts, one needs to definitely incorporate 'full-resistance' training, as well as weapons, improvisation, adaptability, environmental awareness, lethals (dirty and competition-illegal), situational, and communications. MMA studies are not enough, nor are they the totality. Nor is it sufficient to study blindly. Those of us who have the knowledge, and the knowhow, to present 'common sense' functional concepts should endeavor to do so with a degree of diligence that yells louder than the posers.
Specializing, due to preference, is absolutely acceptable. But let us keep to the fact there is far more to the martial arts than what we may opt to specialize in. As martial artists, it is our duty to ensure the arts aren't watered down, and that every advance is embraced. But, in doing so, we must not abandon all prior advances. There is a tremendous amount of information out there about the arts, and it can be a daunting task to determine what is real and what is not. But, those of us who have the experience and insight to be able to tell the difference should continue to present what is viable in the hopes this 'positive' approach will eventually drown out the falsivity that is prevalent in the field. The martial arts is far more than a spectator sport, and we should not allow it to be relegated to that. The arts are for us, not the fans, and it is only by the actions of 'true' practitioners that they remain viable studies.
Thank you for reading
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UseoForce
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 938
Styles: Combat Hapkido, MMA/BJJ, Various others
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:35 am Post subject: |
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I agree on all counts.
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on the post.
