Add KarateForums.com
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Korean Martial Arts
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta go with Montana here. I did a stint boxing in college. Despite being restricted to only punching weapons it's called the sweet science for a reason. It's reliance on angles and movement are not easy to learn and even less easy to ingrain for use under pressure. It's why despite only 8 or nine punches, practitioners drill over and over for years to make them work most efficiently.

The wide array of tactics available in oriental arts sometimes (sometimes!) does not mean superiority. Most boxers who've spent similar amounts of time in have a deeper understanding of how to use their tools under duress than martial artists do.

On the grappling note, throwing a headlock and falling to the ground might be instinctive; however, from experience I can say that high end technical grappling is not instinctive. The body has to work in ways that it just doesn't on it's feet. You'll see BJJ black belts with 8-10 years of consistent training under their belts, with a big chunk of that built around randori and applying the tactics of the art under pressure. That's a time frame and training paradigm that most traditional martial artist can't claim.

Just food for thought, I'm not saying learning to kick is easy. I've never been a great fighter in that aspect. However, I don't think it's an accurate generalization to lump other arts as easier to learn. Especially the ones you indicated, brickshooter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger

DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6153
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brickshooter wrote:
The truth is that kicking is the most difficult skill to learn. And that is what TKD gives. Boxing is one of the easiet skill to learn. Grappling is also incredibly innate.

Hence, the TKD guys are among those who can make the transition to MMA the easiest.

As much as I love TKD, I can't say its harder to learn than boxing. Sure enough within TKD itself the leg techniques are probably harder to learn than the hand techniques but our TKD group invited a boxing coach in to do a session with us and I definitely found it really difficult to pick up. I don't know whether that was just because I was trying to override TKD methodology and training but it certainly wasn't easy.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

datguy
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 91

Styles: Taekwondo, Judo, and Kickboxing.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, welcome aboard MickPD82! Thanks for your service to our country. I plan on enlisting in the Marines after school's done, so it's nice to have someone with your knowledge around.

As far as the TKD rant goes, I'm just going to say no one style is better or easier than another. That's like saying a baby learning to walk comes much easier than learning to ride a bike as a toddler...it depends on the individual. My school is not oriented around sparring or Olympic acrobatics. My school teaches the techniques of the art, and lays the task of "developing your style within the style" to oneself. That being said we also focus very much so on real-world self defense.

Bottom line, this debate about TKD's practicality will go on forever so long as there isn't a mutual respect for each and every style. I'm sure there's a boxing wizz who could beat a tai chi master and I'm also sure there's a tai chi master who could beat a boxer. It all comes down to respect for ones abilities.
_________________
“Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

brickshooter
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 443


PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montana and Tallgeese,

How long did it take you guys to learn TKD punching to the point where you can reasonably defend yourself in a fight versus a person of the same weight and athleticism?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MasterPain
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brickshooter wrote:
brickshooter wrote:
Montana and Tallgeese,

How long did it take you guys to learn TKD punching to the point where you can reasonably defend yourself in a fist fight versus an untrained person of the same weight and athleticism?


It may be harder to learn to defend yourself using just kicks than just punches, but to more easily transition to mma, you need an mma skill set, which includes punching, kicking, and grappling. I would argue that you wouldn't necessarily need to be a good kicker, so long as you trained with someone who is, and learned to defend them.

I'm reminded of a Royce Gracie quote regarding training in striking. "You just make a fist and swing it."
_________________
My fists bleed death. -Akuma
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been a TKD stylist, brickshooter. Sorry if I mislead you somehow, so take my numbers with a grain of salt here. For me, out of my base art, it was about 3 years or so before I felt comfortable with the idea of real conflict if I recall.

Then we realized (thanks UFC 1) that there was a whole range we hadn't trained in. That was probably a couple more years to feel comfortable with, and that's just to augment self defense skills with ground work. Not being comfortable in a grappling bout.

Bear in mind about the striking numbers though, I'm coming out of a different striking pardigm there. Hand were always up, heavy focus on combinations and movement. Follow up control, ext. You mileage may differ with different arts.

In the end, we usually train, if we train past say brown in most karate based arts and blue in BJJ, we're not training for just self defense anymore. Skills at those levels will greatly improve your odds in a street altercation if that's all you're looking for. Not saying more time won't make you better, just that in MOST altercations you'll have an ADVANTAGE. I bold it because that's all you'll ever get. There are no guarantees. Past those time frames you're really training to prepare yourself against that 1 percent violent offenders who really want to kill you if you're focusing on self defense.

One last point, don't let me mislead you. It's not time in just any art training for whatever reason. The methodology must be sound and realistic in implementation and the mindset focused for ANY art to give you an edge.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger

Lupin1
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1604
Location: NH USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I know that this doesn't represent ALL TKD schools, but most of the McDojos I've seen are TKD. We've got one around here I went to for a few weeks and one night we learned this weird almost dance of monkey-punches (as my Isshinryu instructor calls those slow, powerless, "stick it out there" punches a lot of people throw in partner work) and weird side blocks where you bend your wrist and hook it around the other person's "punch" and when I commented that that wouldn't be very effective the instructor said "but doesn't it look cool?". That was my last night at that school. I also thought it was interesting that their bo form involved throwing the bo on the ground and cartwheeling over it and spining it behind your back, but didn't include any actual strikes or blocks or anything (not that I've learned bo in my own style yet, but I've watched the black belts practice their form many times).

Again, though, I know this is in no way representative of all TKD schools. There are just so many of them that ones like this are very common and so this is what a lot of people think of when they think TKD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27780
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lupin1 wrote:
Again, though, I know this is in no way representative of all TKD schools. There are just so many of them that ones like this are very common and so this is what a lot of people think of when they think TKD.


I see this a lot. "So many of them" equals how many of the ones you know of in your area, though? You admit you've seen one. Have you been to or checked all of the TKD schools in your area? What about Karate schools practicing XMA forms and weapons? Would they fall under that category, as well?
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

brickshooter
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 443


PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
I've never been a TKD stylist, brickshooter. Sorry if I mislead you somehow, so take my numbers with a grain of salt here. For me, out of my base art, it was about 3 years or so before I felt comfortable with the idea of real conflict if I recall.

Then we realized (thanks UFC 1) that there was a whole range we hadn't trained in. That was probably a couple more years to feel comfortable with, and that's just to augment self defense skills with ground work. Not being comfortable in a grappling bout.

Bear in mind about the striking numbers though, I'm coming out of a different striking pardigm there. Hand were always up, heavy focus on combinations and movement. Follow up control, ext. You mileage may differ with different arts.

In the end, we usually train, if we train past say brown in most karate based arts and blue in BJJ, we're not training for just self defense anymore. Skills at those levels will greatly improve your odds in a street altercation if that's all you're looking for. Not saying more time won't make you better, just that in MOST altercations you'll have an ADVANTAGE. I bold it because that's all you'll ever get. There are no guarantees. Past those time frames you're really training to prepare yourself against that 1 percent violent offenders who really want to kill you if you're focusing on self defense.

One last point, don't let me mislead you. It's not time in just any art training for whatever reason. The methodology must be sound and realistic in implementation and the mindset focused for ANY art to give you an edge.


That's not really my point. My point is that you can take a person with no training, put him or her in a boxing or BJJ regiment for 6 months. And they can reasonably defend themself with what they learned.

You can't do that with TKD or Karate. At 6 months, the TKD/Karate student is barely grasping its concept. Barely.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MasterPain
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brickshooter wrote:
tallgeese wrote:
I've never been a TKD stylist, brickshooter. Sorry if I mislead you somehow, so take my numbers with a grain of salt here. For me, out of my base art, it was about 3 years or so before I felt comfortable with the idea of real conflict if I recall.

Then we realized (thanks UFC 1) that there was a whole range we hadn't trained in. That was probably a couple more years to feel comfortable with, and that's just to augment self defense skills with ground work. Not being comfortable in a grappling bout.

Bear in mind about the striking numbers though, I'm coming out of a different striking pardigm there. Hand were always up, heavy focus on combinations and movement. Follow up control, ext. You mileage may differ with different arts.

In the end, we usually train, if we train past say brown in most karate based arts and blue in BJJ, we're not training for just self defense anymore. Skills at those levels will greatly improve your odds in a street altercation if that's all you're looking for. Not saying more time won't make you better, just that in MOST altercations you'll have an ADVANTAGE. I bold it because that's all you'll ever get. There are no guarantees. Past those time frames you're really training to prepare yourself against that 1 percent violent offenders who really want to kill you if you're focusing on self defense.

One last point, don't let me mislead you. It's not time in just any art training for whatever reason. The methodology must be sound and realistic in implementation and the mindset focused for ANY art to give you an edge.


That's not really my point. My point is that you can take a person with no training, put him or her in a boxing or BJJ regiment for 6 months. And they can reasonably defend themself with what they learned.

You can't do that with TKD or Karate. At 6 months, the TKD/Karate student is barely grasping its concept. Barely.


I think this has more to do with training methods than anything. If you are shown technique, rep a technique, spar with said technique, and have the underlying principles explained to you, any good art should start to be effective in a few months.
_________________
My fists bleed death. -Akuma
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Korean Martial Arts All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >