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G95champ
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grapplers would still do better because most fights go to the ground. The only thing we would see is more people hurt if strikers were allowed to throw vital strikes.

Only rule I would change is the kicking of a downed opponent.
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G95champ
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJJ-Dober wrote:
Guys,

The early's UFC's only rules were no eye gouging and no biting, Royce Gracie won the first 3 UFC's.



Gracie and his family is the best in the world at BJJ and ground fighting no question. However the early boxers and karate fighters were not. Roy Jones Jr., a young Chuck Norris, etc. Im just saying one on one in a cage will alway favor a grappler.
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JohnnyS
Green Belt
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Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think vital strikes would make much difference.
Eye-gouge's and biting would probably favour the grappler as he would have the better control to inflict these injuries. Eye-jabs are no different to normal jabs and it's hard enough to hit someone in the face with a jab let alone a smaller target like the eyes with a smaller weapon (fingers) in the middle of a fight.
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G95champ
Black Belt
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Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kicks to the groin

Kicks to the knee cap

Throat punches

Clawing techinques



Again a one on one fight will always favor a grappler but TRUE strikes are limited in what Traditional arts teach. Thats why you don't see karate, TKD, Kung Fu, etc in the UFC. Thats all....
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JohnnyS
Green Belt
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Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Groin strikes were legal in the first few UFC's. Groin kicks are fairly avoidable and aren't fight finishers anyhow.

Kicking the knee is also over-rated. If the person has their knee bent and their weight on it then you'll have a hard time breaking it in the middle of a fight.

Throat punches - see above regarding eye jabs. If you've got your hands up, head down in a typical boxing/kickboxing stance then you're throat is well protected.

Clawing techniques - pffft. Pain techniques like this are not going to finish a fight - not against someone tough and motivated.


The reason why we don't see karate, TKD , kung-fu etc in the UFC is because they don't work in this environment. Practitioners of these arts have been defeated in the UFC and similar events. It's no co-incidence that arts like BJJ, wrestling, boxing, and kickboxing are being used by all the successful fighters in these events.
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AndrewGreen
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 905
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Styles: Crazy Penguin Ninjitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G95champ wrote:
Kicks to the groin

Kicks to the knee cap


Been done, don't really do much unless you are kicking a straight leg with weight on it at the right angle. No trained person would ever stand like this though.

Quote:

Throat punches


Good luck, the chin is a difficult taget to land a solid punch on, and it is in front of the throat protecting it...

Quote:

Clawing techinques


Mostly annoying.

If you are in a loosing situation in a real fight dirty tactics will likely just give you a few extra days in bed since you just really * off a guy who was already beating you up.


Quote:

Again a one on one fight will always favor a grappler but TRUE strikes are limited in what Traditional arts teach. Thats why you don't see karate, TKD, Kung Fu, etc in the UFC. Thats all....


Actually we did, they came, they got beat and they stopped coming.


Grappling will happen if it is allowed, even if it is just two strikers. As soon as one guy starts taking hits he will (or at least should) clinch for safety. If you don't know how to deal with that and he does you are in trouble.

A "true" striker would need to know how to strike in a clinch and get out of a clinch, which means he has to train in the clinch. He would need to know how to avoid and counter takedowns, so he would have to train with takedowns and train in how to do them. He would have to know how to avoid submissions, escape bad positions and get back to his feet, which means training on the ground.

So for a striker to be successful he needs to know how to grapple so that he can deal with grappling.
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JerryLove
Black Belt
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Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Been done, don't really do much unless you are kicking a straight leg with weight on it at the right angle. No trained person would ever stand like this though.

Another reason why no shoes and a canvas surface hurt a striker's tools.

Quote:
Good luck, the chin is a difficult taget to land a solid punch on, and it is in front of the throat protecting it...

And yet "ground and pound" is a common situation.

Quote:
If you are in a loosing situation in a real fight dirty tactics will likely just give you a few extra days in bed since you just really * off a guy who was already beating you up.

The classic false assumption.. "I'll be beating you p and you'll start trying tricks to get out". It's a horrible axiom. Proper behavior is to use every weapon from moment one...

And I've watched a trained MMA drop to the floor from a grip on his shoulder... ir was not in a fight (though he was prepared for the action and expecting it), but the grip was to illustrate what would have been the forece of an earlier in-sparring grab to his throat... had it not been sparring.

Quote:
Actually we did, they came, they got beat and they stopped coming.
You mean striking arts like thai boxing don't show up in UFCs?

Quote:
A "true" striker would need to know how to strike in a clinch and get out of a clinch, which means he has to train in the clinch. He would need to know how to avoid and counter takedowns, so he would have to train with takedowns and train in how to do them. He would have to know how to avoid submissions, escape bad positions and get back to his feet, which means training on the ground.

So for a striker to be successful he needs to know how to grapple so that he can deal with grappling.

Just so long as your standards are equally applied. How did wrestlers with absolutely no cross-training do? Not well. Why? No experience with striking.
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TJS
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Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843

Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How did wrestlers with absolutely no cross-training do? Not well. Why? No experience with striking.


Dan Severn Had no Cross training when he fought in the early days..I would say Wrestler generally require the leat amount of cross training.

but your right to really accel most of them started training boxing im sure.
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G95champ
Black Belt
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Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus Smith was basically a true striker when he won his first UFC title.

Anyone who says leg kicks are over rate has not taken one for a good Thai Fighter.

There has NEVER been and NEVER will be a striker in the UFC as well respected as Gracie is to a grappler. Thats the truth.

Gracie vs Roy Jones Jr. in a boxing ring?

A cage with padded floors, rules against certin kicks and strikes favors a grappler thats not hard to say is it.
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AndrewGreen
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 905
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Styles: Crazy Penguin Ninjitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G95champ wrote:
Marcus Smith was basically a true striker when he won his first UFC title.


Umm... "Marcus" Smith...

Quote:

There has NEVER been and NEVER will be a striker in the UFC as well respected as Gracie is to a grappler. Thats the truth.


Ok, why?

How much do top boxers make?

How about top UFC fighters?

How many people box?

How many fight in MMA?

Quote:

Gracie vs Roy Jones Jr. in a boxing ring?


RJJ vs Gracie in sport JJ?

Only way to let both do their thing is MMA or Vale Tudo.

Quote:

A cage with padded floors, rules against certin kicks and strikes favors a grappler thats not hard to say is it.


Padded floor - better for the guy that gets thrown and ends up on the bottom... Oh wait, thats the striker...
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