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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
"Challenging the Gracie family" is hardly a claim to fame. The problem with this is that he didn't fight anyone. The Gracie's did. They went everywhere and anywhere and fought the world over. They had an open challenge-all emin would need to do is show up... it he didn't and I think rational people can deduce why after looking as his fight.
open challenge on their terms! That rational people can deduce why!




Right... The rules are simple- fight until someone gives up or gets knocked out...

Oh my how they stacked the odds in their favor.....
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two sides to every story and also the truth that is not based on overwhelming evidence.

If Emin and the Gracie's were in a sinking boat and if the only way they would survive is to work together, they would join forces to stay alive.

However their difference were delt with off the battle ground and as there were no significant gains to be made and no interest in loses, there differences equated to nothing; a stand off.

Emin strategy was a win win situation (The art of fighting without fighting) and the Gracie's lost nothing and yet gain something about Wing Chun.

Wing Chun is a street fighting style usually practiced by many Chinese medical professionals, (such as William) gentlemen and women. It is not a sport but could be described as a scientific way of fighting.

As a street fighting style, Wing Chun belongs on the street or in enlosed places and usally nowhere else. Rolling as in Jujitsu is not practical when fighting more than one opponent, therefore stand up fighting strategies are preferred out of practicality and not out of bias or prejudices.

Jujitsu practitioners need someone to cover them as rolling with an opponent could end fatally from a third party intervention, in the form of a knife. Thefore Jujitsu needs a strong support system as in a family, friends, gang or mob. This has a strong appealing effect for many martial artists to become a part of this BJJ style.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Ah, the dreaded "street fighter" argument.... been around the block a few times with this one, so I dont mind doing it yet again...



Alan Armstrong wrote:
Wing Chun is a street fighting style usually practiced by many Chinese medical professionals, (such as William) gentlemen and women. It is not a sport but could be described as a scientific way of fighting.


Every style claims to be a scientific way of fighting while also being completely unwilling to follow the rules of science when they start to disagree with them. What this means is that in science you develop something and then you test it- preferably numerous times with as few constants as possible. With the results you can then make conclusions. Many styles dont test or refuse to test what they call "theories" (in reality they're hypothesis). If they do, they immediately offer conjecture as to what went wrong with the experiment rather than what went wrong with the theory. This is a dime a dozen with traditional styles Always something about the rules, the fighters, the clothing, the cage, whatever- everything and anything prevents us from seeing the "real" style.

You think there arent numerous things that make doing any grappling a pain? Having big clunky gloves on while trying to choke your opponent? Having no articles of clothing to grab at all? Not being allowed to hit the back of the head? Constantly being stood up because of "entertainment" and "rounds?" Wrestlers certainly dont enjoy being punched in the head. Boxers dont like being slammed in the ground- they dont train these things in their sport, but what these styles DID do was prove they were incredibly versatile and despite how many (or how few) rules were in place, whether some rules favored and others hampered, all of these styles continued to dominate because they are adaptable. This is what makes these styles the best (or their training methods I should say).


Alan Armstrong wrote:

As a street fighting style, Wing Chun belongs on the street or in enlosed places and usally nowhere else. Rolling as in Jujitsu is not practical when fighting more than one opponent, therefore stand up fighting strategies are preferred out of practicality and not out of bias or prejudices.


You realize that BJJ was developed on the street of Brazil, correct? Thats as pure a "street fighting" style as there is. In fact when you actually look at the history of virtually all martial arts, they are ALL designed with combat at its heart but were changed to allow for sportive competition allowing practicioners to develop said style even moreso.

What the first MMA events taught us are as follows:
1: Real life fights favor grappling, ironically regardless of how skilled a striker (sometimes in spite of their skill at striking) the fighters were.
2: Numerous claims by martial arts went up in a cloud of smoke. 99% of the things we were taught and were expecting were rubbish.
3: The styles that were considered "sports" (wrestling, bjj, boxing, muay thai) absolutely and overwhelming decimating to an extreme degree (have I emphasized just how much they annihilated TMA's?) that many found it hard to believe.

This occurred because what was most important was the means of training for fighters. Practical experience (i.e. actual competition) was of utmost importance significantly more than any death touches or pressure point ninja moves could ever be. No one had more experience dealing with fully resisting opponents than the sportive competitors because thats EXACTLY what the sport is about.

In regards to dealing with multiple opponents, I'll give you that. BJJ will not help you when you're fighting more than one... but then again neither will any other style. See the above examples where the traditional styles were unable to even defeat a single opponent when put to the test. Now explain to me how someone who cant fight one person suddenly knows how to fight 2 or 3? Your "sportive" styles wont teach you to fight against multiple attackers... but at least you'll actually learn how to fight against one.


So the dreaded "street fight" is a great sales gimmick to thos that have never been in one, because it sounds so deadly. Much like people that have "bouncer, LEO, Military, Bodyguard" or whatever else in their credentials. It impresses people who know no better. Street fights are a joke. The worst street fight wouldve barely classified as a warmup for any generic hobby-ist practicioner in a "MMA-esque" style (the ones you associate with MMA, to save me from typing out a ton...).

So on the topic of street fights-The "longest" one I was in was never more than 15 seconds, because untrained people do not even know how to stop the first move. That means my first takedown always worked. My first choke hold always worked, and they never blocked or countered it- because they were never trained how. I dont know where you get this concept that a "street fight" is some dreaded encounter in a separate dimension where the current laws of physics are suspended- a street fight is a fight between 2 completely regular people the majority of the time. People who otherwise have no idea what they're doing. You're not impressing me because you beat up bums. On the other hand, if you become known for doing something (submitting people or knocking them out- whatever) and theres footage of you doing it, you continue to do it despite other trained fighters watching how you do it and training to keep you from doing it.... and you STILL are able to- you now have discovered someone that has a true talent. This is reality. Unfortunately there are many that will refuse to acknowledge it and will continue to live in their own world but at the end of the day will never step up to the plate to back up what they say.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a martial artist, I don't care which style is better, BBJ or WC, I'm more concerned with what I've learned, that can be used to defeat my opponent(s)

I respect my BBJ friends and they are likewise we me.

The Gracie's and Emin, both, have elevated MA to a higher level, we should acknowledge and thank them all for there contributions and dedication to improving something that was already very special.

All martial arts have strengths and weaknesses (none are perfect) this is why they are tempered with adaptability and humility.

Martial arts has been divided in to segments/styles, for example a punch on the nose, be it a kung fu punch, karate punch, Muay Thai punch, no matter the name tag, is still a punch on the nose.
Who hits harder or faster or straighter, does it really matter?

As long as the stronger helps the weaker and that harmony prevails over rivalry, no matter the flavor or prevailing MA style of the current time, if martial arts can continue to stay as a positive endeavor, then we have a least managed to pass it on to future generations, with some minor improvements.
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TJ-Jitsu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
As a martial artist, I don't care which style is better, BBJ or WC, I'm more concerned with what I've learned, that can be used to defeat my opponent(s)

I respect my BBJ friends and they are likewise we me.

The Gracie's and Emin, both, have elevated MA to a higher level, we should acknowledge and thank them all for there contributions and dedication to improving something that was already very special.

All martial arts have strengths and weaknesses (none are perfect) this is why they are tempered with adaptability and humility.

Martial arts has been divided in to segments/styles, for example a punch on the nose, be it a kung fu punch, karate punch, Muay Thai punch, no matter the name tag, is still a punch on the nose.
Who hits harder or faster or straighter, does it really matter?

As long as the stronger helps the weaker and that harmony prevails over rivalry, no matter the flavor or prevailing MA style of the current time, if martial arts can continue to stay as a positive endeavor, then we have a least managed to pass it on to future generations, with some minor improvements.


Hmmm... so Im not trying to come off as being "dur, BJJ is t3h Best0R!" but I kinda am at the same time, so allow me to elaborate.

The primary reason why the Gracies were so successful was because they had not just real world experience, but LOTS of it. Thats the inherit advantage of grappling styles. The physics of fighting favor the grappling game. Grapplers are able to spend more time training at 100% against fully resising opponents. The advantage of being able to train at near to full resistance on a regular basis becomes quite significant over time. Thats part one.

Part two has to do with the ability to derive theories and then test them out. The gracies would fight against any and all styles- sometimes within a particular styles ruleset (Judo for example) and sometimes with minimal or no rulesets whatsoever.

The significant problem with wing chun is that it attempts to identify and create a hypothetical (not theoretical) range of combat called "trapping" range. It also overhauls what is a completely natural way of twisting to throw punches in favor of "chain punching." Not to be outdone, we have "anti-grappling." As delicately as I can put this, I dont think I've ever seen any practical technique in a wing chun video or demonstrated by a wing chun practicioner... ever- and there IS a reason for this. It lies in their outright refusal to test their style in a fight. (See above explanations before bringing up streets fights...). The problem here (as there was in so many traditional martial arts) is that contact with reality is soon lost and without that, there becomes nothing with which to keep absurd ideas in check. In regards to how it practices and why its not particularly good-

1: Trapping range doesnt really exist, at least if it does its easily and naturally overcome. Humans by nature will quickly grab someone in a fight especially if you're on the recieving end of some strikes. This quickly nullifies trapping range and makes it a grapple

2: Brings us to anti grappling- the most underwhelming demonstrations for grappling I think anyone has produced, and for good reason- none of them actually took the time to learn how to grapple. "High level" anti grapplers look like 6 week white belts with the techniques they show and how they execute them. Its a classic example of the blind leading the blind.

3: Chain punching. The problem with this is that no power is transfered to the punches. I know you might wish to argue different, but once again this is a case of the blind leading the blind. Anyone with a few years boxing will understand the concept of hitting with power (and the consequences of not). The chain punching concepts leave your chin wide open for practically any attack that your opponent may throw and a committed haymaker thrown by a novice will overwhelm someones guard. In kung fu practice the guard works better, because again said practicioners dont understand how to put their body into a punch.

Now before you wish to debate what I've said, Im going to encourage you to look at the evidence. Show me a video of wing chun working against even a modest opponent- I cant find a single one.

Now what did these UFC teach us? It wasnt so much that "OMG styles #1 and #2 are the best and thats it." Some people already mentioned thought all you needed was one style....

No, again I direct you to the concept of training with resisting opponents. Go back to the beginning and BJJ and wrestling was all the rage. That "karate stuff" just doesnt work, right there with anything regarding striking. Then guys started to learn how to box AND wrestle. Ok.... so thats one more style added to the mix, but dont you dare kick cause someones gonna just catch it and slam you... until fighters really start to work on their kicks and I'll be- they can work too.

Ok, but these are the "real" styles- the sportive ones. The traditional ones dont work at all though... right? Well... you are starting to see a few fighters that are incorporating things that "arent practical" to your old UFC fan. These are fighters like Lyoto Machida and Steven Thompson that are very much karate oriented in their fighting styles.

You see, these fighters started to train with fully resisting opponents and tested their theories against other fighters. This allows you to fine tune your theories and change some things while keeping others. This happens in the jiu jitsu world as well. It wasnt that long ago when I heard people say things like half guard doesnt work in MMA and leg locks arent practical when someone's punching you in the face. You better not pull guard in a "real" fight....

What is and isnt practical is constantly being challenged in the UFC and fighters are always looking at other means of using whatever they can find to get a leg up on the competition. The formula is simple- resisting opponents. So to bring us back to wing chun, thats primarily why the style isnt respected. Maybe some of it theories are valid, but without evidence thats just conjecture. In the martial arts world, skepticism is very healthy because there are just too many people selling crap out there. Now maybe some of the stuff from WC might have its place in a real fight, but we'll never know until someone (anyone!) can prove to us it does. In either case, it needs to incorporate much more resistance in their training
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Tempest
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
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Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The formula is simple- resisting opponents.


Pretty much this. I believe I said it earlier, I don't know everything about martial arts, heck, I don't even know a lot, but the things I know I can do, there is no doubt in my mind that I absolutely CAN do them, because I HAVE done them.

I have trained in Karate, and in TKD and other traditional martial arts, and the simple reason why I cannot keep with them is unrealistic training methods.

You do not train to punch by punching to miss, and you CANNOT train to grapple unless the person you are grappling with resisting opponents
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have no problem of how off or on track this topic sways.

Training methods will deviate depending on style.

Chain punching for Wing Chun is a part of their style, for them to do Karate or boxing punches would not fit in to their MO.

I am very familiar with Wing Chun chain punching techniques, that without the proper training or instruction will most definitely be weak and ineffective.

Had a real fight in a TKD class, with another student. Using Wing Chun chain punches he didn't have a chance, it nearly got me expelled, I did them the favor and soon after I quit.

From personal experience (in my youth) when fighting on the ground, I used my head alot for headbutting and forhead face rubbing techniques; this is not something that can be practiced in a Dojo.

There are plenty of dirty fighting street fighting techniques that can be used while fighting on the ground, that are not jujitsu based or similar to Wing Chun; however more similar to a wild animal attack.

Had Emin Boztepe walked in to a BJJ academy instead of a Wing Chun school perhaps he would be batting for the other team and this conversation would never have happened.
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Tempest
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about batting for the other team, but I believe if he had walked in to a BJJ school or a decent Judo school and did what he did in the video he would be lucky if ALL they did was feed him his teeth.

Seriously though, what I saw in the video was an assault, not an overwhelmingly skilled one, but somewhat skilled and athletic, carried out against someone who had no idea how to defend themselves.
Now, this is not REALLY a problem if you are not trying to tell people that you can teach them self defense, THEN it is a problem.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
As a street fighting style, Wing Chun belongs on the street or in enlosed places and usally nowhere else. Rolling as in Jujitsu is not practical when fighting more than one opponent, therefore stand up fighting strategies are preferred out of practicality and not out of bias or prejudices.

Jujitsu practitioners need someone to cover them as rolling with an opponent could end fatally from a third party intervention, in the form of a knife. Thefore Jujitsu needs a strong support system as in a family, friends, gang or mob. This has a strong appealing effect for many martial artists to become a part of this BJJ style.


Most of what you say here is true about all styles. Not many are made to take on more than one opponent, and third party intervention with a knife is bad no matter if it is one on one or three on one.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many people in the Wing Chun community (during the past years) have switched to Emin's Wing Tsun.

Regardless of Emin's popularity out side of the martial art community, he has within the WC branches given a new perspective and inspired many to continue with confidence.

Wing Chun has suffered many demoralized blows for being ineffective, Emin has changed that image by visiting many WC schools and converting them to his 21st Century WT methods.

Traditionl Wing Chun is different from the contemporary version, that is taking over and practiced today.

The traditional WC fighters were combatting with traditional Chinese martial artists. Whereas Emin's WT encompasses fighting against modern day martial artists.

To be sitting in judgement on a video clip of Emin fighting 30 years ago, on how bad he was then. you will undoubtedly miss out on how good he is at preparing Wing Tsun students for the future.

Don't be over confident on how good your style is against Wing Chun; because there is a new WING TSUNami generation on it's way, and under estimating others, is always the cause of downfalls; in this instance, it could be due to the influence of Emin Boztepe.
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