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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minimum age is 18 as one is an adult at that point. Prior to that, its just not practical to think a child can beat a grown adult. IMO if you give black belts to children you're inviting so much criticism and questioning of what you're attempting to teach people.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting kids in anything that involves intense exercise can cause permanent damage (if they continue to participate.)

They might do quite well through their teens and early adulthood. Problems set in later in life.

*Gymnasts tend to have looser bodies, and once they lose the muscle mass that supports the joints, they suffer stability issues in their joints
*General over-use issues set in earlier

Yes, there are many wonderful benefits for children in martial arts, but there are risks, too.
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2389
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sensei8,

Soke wasn’t wrong. It’s his system and organization, and he’s entitled to do as he chooses with it. It doesn’t matter what anyone and everyone else is doing, as they’re entitled to make their own rules in their own organizations too.

But if I’m interpreting your original post correctly, Soke did make a mistake; he didn’t make it explicitly known there was a minimum age from the beginning. Had he made this known, the complainers wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. Because they didn’t know, they were under the impression/assumed that it was like most other places they’ve seen or heard of. If I was under the impression that my 7 and 5 year old daughters would receive a black belt after say 4-6 years of hard work and adequately fulfilling the syllabus, then when they were at that point and I was told for the first time that they simply weren’t old enough, I wouldn’t be very happy either. I’d have the feeling that my kids held up their end of the bargain, and the teacher was reneging on his end. Had I known from the time I agreed to allow my kids to train, it wouldn’t be an issue at all. If I wasn’t told until the expected time came, I’d be pretty upset. Think about it this way - my kids have been working hard to achieve something and I’ve been encouraging it to help keep them focused and motivated. Not in a be all, end all way, but in a positive way. They’ve done everything they’ve been asked and more, and they’re excited about it. And now I’ve got to tell them “sorry, it’s all been wrong. You’ve got to wait several more years before you can get it.” It would be like telling them Christmas has been moved back 5 years on Christmas Eve.

Make it known, and there’s no issue. Yeah, some people will still argue, but they’ve been told, so it’s easy to dismiss their protests. Don’t make it known, and you’ve got people exercising their entitlement of being able to leave as they see fit.

For the record, I don’t believe in kids wearing black belts, junior or full-fledged. But I understand the counter arguments and think they’ve got some great points. If I were to start my own school, kids would get a different belt color than black when they reached that point - either gray or a sort of camouflaged belt that incorporated all the kyu belt colors. But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27927
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
P.A.L wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
When a complete newbie joins a karate club for the first time, what are they led to believe black belt represents? When a parent puts their child into the trust of the person at the front, what are they led to believe black belt represents?

The marketing spiel usually promises self discipline, respect, confidence, fitness, self defence ability. Usually some or all of the above.

Are those things age dependent? I really don't know.

In our association, the minimum age is 10. We have 10 year old dan grades. We have to bow to them and call them sir. I do this to tow the line but I do worry. Do they have the right to be confident in their self defence ability? At that age, unless they're unlucky enough to have an unusually hard life, their idea of a 'real fight' is a brief exchange of taps until either someone cries or the teacher intervenes.

are they junior black blets or full black belt? I can't imagin a 10 years old full black belt.
No disrespect to your school or any other schools but if I have a school and I give a black belt to 10 years old ( I don't care if he/she is better than Rika Osami) it only means I need money and I can't even wait.


They are full black belt. To be fair to them they are good kids, and they definitely have good technical skills. One of them (yes we have several ) can even spar pretty well.


This has been common in the schools I've attended as well. In my current school, however, the testing requirements are very much related to curriculum: knowledge of the basics, forms, one-steps, and sparring. Testing adds in board breaking for the brown belts and up. So the material the kids do and the material the adults do is the same.

This is the question that I think needs to be addressed when it comes to the use of a Junior Black Belt rank and a full-fledged Black Belt rank. Is there a difference in what the students are learning? Are there different testing requirements? What changes in the curriculum beyond the rank, as that needs to be considered as well?
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6186
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lupin1 wrote:
One thing I've learned after about a decade of these discussions is that "black belt" means something different at every school. There is no standard.

So at one school giving a black belt to a child would make no sense by their definition of black belt. At another school where black belt means just having the basics down, giving one to a child who has met that standard makes sense and there's nothing wrong with that.

The first question that needs to be asked is "what does black belt mean at your school".

I think this is at the heart of it. What does a black belt mean? And are all black belts equal?

I come to this question having been a 14 year old black belt myself and having trained junior black belts as young as 13.

Nowadays I tend to view it as a formality rather than anything special. Proof is on the Floor, as you'd say Sensei8. It's like passing your driving test or earning a bachelors degree. To me a black belt means that you have a level of ability or knowledge but there is a great spectrum of skill within that belt level.

Was your Soke right? Well he was right for him and for his school. It's not for us to pass judgement on his decisions.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14611
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Behind closed door discussions Soke's reasoning was simply maturity, and for him, children weren't mature worthy to accept the great responsibility he believed was required for Shodan. He also had failed a countless amount of adults testing and/or petitions for candidacy because those adults, in his honest opinion, weren't mature enough mentally, physically, and/or technique wise.

With Soke, maturity had to be there for all three parameters, and not just with technique. He had absolute no tolerance for any student that thought that they were privileged because they pay their tuition and/or they've been a student for a while.

Dai-Soke was even more intolerant, but that's proof that the apple didn't fall far from the tree, in their care; student like teacher, I suppose.

I enforce it because it's a By-Law and to change that particular By-Law, a majority vote would have to be cast, but first that vote would have to have a motion, and then seconded, to be placed on any voting scheduling for the 2Q calendar. For now, I don't see that during my life time.

Can a SKKA dojo do whatever they want in this regard?? Sure, nothing preventing that; worser things can happen, no real big deal. That dojo would have to go rogue because the SKKA/Hombu would strip them of their charter.



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The Pred
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 331

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Sensei8,

Soke wasn’t wrong. It’s his system and organization, and he’s entitled to do as he chooses with it. It doesn’t matter what anyone and everyone else is doing, as they’re entitled to make their own rules in their own organizations too.

But if I’m interpreting your original post correctly, Soke did make a mistake; he didn’t make it explicitly known there was a minimum age from the beginning. Had he made this known, the complainers wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. Because they didn’t know, they were under the impression/assumed that it was like most other places they’ve seen or heard of. If I was under the impression that my 7 and 5 year old daughters would receive a black belt after say 4-6 years of hard work and adequately fulfilling the syllabus, then when they were at that point and I was told for the first time that they simply weren’t old enough, I wouldn’t be very happy either. I’d have the feeling that my kids held up their end of the bargain, and the teacher was reneging on his end. Had I known from the time I agreed to allow my kids to train, it wouldn’t be an issue at all. If I wasn’t told until the expected time came, I’d be pretty upset. Think about it this way - my kids have been working hard to achieve something and I’ve been encouraging it to help keep them focused and motivated. Not in a be all, end all way, but in a positive way. They’ve done everything they’ve been asked and more, and they’re excited about it. And now I’ve got to tell them “sorry, it’s all been wrong. You’ve got to wait several more years before you can get it.” It would be like telling them Christmas has been moved back 5 years on Christmas Eve.

Make it known, and there’s no issue. Yeah, some people will still argue, but they’ve been told, so it’s easy to dismiss their protests. Don’t make it known, and you’ve got people exercising their entitlement of being able to leave as they see fit.

For the record, I don’t believe in kids wearing black belts, junior or full-fledged. But I understand the counter arguments and think they’ve got some great points. If I were to start my own school, kids would get a different belt color than black when they reached that point - either gray or a sort of camouflaged belt that incorporated all the kyu belt colors. But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it


Agreed
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KarateNewbie
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 01 Aug 2017
Posts: 21

Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just a newbie but in our dojo, the teaching is that you don't "get" a black belt. You "become" a black belt. It's a transformation of sorts, like a caterpillar to a butterfly, and involves a whole change of perception. While a 10 year old could quite possibly master the techniques needed to earn a black belt, I'm not sure if most are capable of this change of mindset.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KarateNewbie wrote:
I'm just a newbie but in our dojo, the teaching is that you don't "get" a black belt. You "become" a black belt. It's a transformation of sorts, like a caterpillar to a butterfly, and involves a whole change of perception. While a 10 year old could quite possibly master the techniques needed to earn a black belt, I'm not sure if most are capable of this change of mindset.


While I agree with this, it does raise a couple of difficult questions.

1. How does one measure and test to see if that mindset and wisdom is there? Age alone can not be a measure.

2. Is a 50 year old ex soldier or doorman or policeman in a white belt less wise and knowledgeable than a 20 year old college graduate in a black belt?

I guess the real question is, if age is part of the criteria, how can that be fairly backed up and supported with evidence?
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KarateNewbie
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 01 Aug 2017
Posts: 21

Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
KarateNewbie wrote:
I'm just a newbie but in our dojo, the teaching is that you don't "get" a black belt. You "become" a black belt. It's a transformation of sorts, like a caterpillar to a butterfly, and involves a whole change of perception. While a 10 year old could quite possibly master the techniques needed to earn a black belt, I'm not sure if most are capable of this change of mindset.


While I agree with this, it does raise a couple of difficult questions.

1. How does one measure and test to see if that mindset and wisdom is there? Age alone can not be a measure.

2. Is a 50 year old ex soldier or doorman or policeman in a white belt less wise and knowledgeable than a 20 year old college graduate in a black belt?

I guess the real question is, if age is part of the criteria, how can that be fairly backed up and supported with evidence?


Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm trying to say that I don't think age alone should be the decider - the change of mindset should be. There are some 10 year olds who may well achieve this, just like there's some 50 year olds who will never will. I agree it's hard, maybe even impossible to measure though.
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