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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2128


PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:32 pm    Post subject: Aikido negativity's or positivity's Reply with quote

Seems there is alot of negativity towards Aikido these days. Not being real or realistic as a martial art. Aikido being compared to flower arranging. Personally I am not negative towards Aikido but I do have some reservation on the effectiveness of Aikido self defence demonstrations. Not that the techniques don't work but the people demonstrating them seem a bit unconvincing.

What is your opinion on Aikido today; is it doomed or is it flourishing?
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mushybees
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 196
Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm coming from wado ryu which is built upon tai sabaki so I find it dovetails into and compliments what I do nicely.

I've never met an aikidoka who claims his/her art is a complete fighting style that's ideal for dealing with criminals so it baffles me why aikido's detractors use this criteria to judge it worthless or not effective.
Atemi exists in aikido though obviously to a lesser degree than karate for example. Just because it isn't the art's main focus doesn't mean an aikidoka who finds themselves in a self protection scenario doesn't know how to punch or kick.
The effectiveness of a martial art is found as much, if not more, in the artist than the technique.

A lot of what we do doesn't directly translate in to perfectly effective self defence. I look at even the grittiest self defence demo of any style/art and I know from experience that the reality is so much messier and chaotic.
I think if the man or woman has it in them already to meet force with force then aikido is as effective as it needs to be.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2128


PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that Aikido had it's day with Stephen Segal and is just waiting for another person to highlight the art to a higher level.

I use some Aikido principle with self-defense. I'm sure Krav Maga enthusiasts would disagree with me on some of my aspects of training. As there is no military brute force involved in my methods it could look a little soft and sensitive for those wearing size 16 commando boots.

Aikido has principles that blend well with other styles and has similarities in which reinforces the practical functionality of this art for the average size human being.

Aikido is a traditional art not caught up in the commerciality or vogue styles of today. Just like rock music had it's day, new generations want something that is contemporary or representational for them. Irrelevant of practicality just needs to look cool ...

I do appreciate those that keep this Aikido style in a state of preservation. I'm not trying to be ironic with this comment. Would be a shame for Aikido to fade away due to neglect and obsolete attitudes towards it's contradictional nature as a martial art style that promotes harmony.

Aikido and Chin na are both created to not permanently harm the opponent. Not all self-defence situations call for mortal combat techniques. The strength of these styles is the multifaceted uses as opposed to the single minded seek and destroy mind set of most ma styles.

Aikido and Chin na techniques can easily be modified and combined to cause serious bodily harm. Yet those that practice these styles develops a deeper sense of understanding that can transcend brutalities and find the art in it instead.

Someday Aikido without the safety latch on in the hands of Mike Tyson type mma is going to surprise the Aikido skeptics; just a matter of time!
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14268
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aikido, imho, is neither doomed and/or flourishing!

As in any MA, they ride a wave of notoriety, and granted, some ride the wave longer than others. Albeit, all MA have their 15 minutes of fame. And in that, the answer to your question will vary as wide as the sea is, depending on whom is asking and whom is asked.

Is Aikido effective? To me, that's the question that bears more fruit, imho. Doomed, to me, means that Aikido is on the way out, and to be on the way out means that Aikido isn't effective anymore. Imho, Aikido is still effective!! If one witnesses something that's not effective, than again, look at the practitioner as the source of that ineffectiveness, and not at the style.

Flourishing is, imho, fed my branding!! The UFC, for an example, is riding that wave, and has for quite along time, and might continue riding that wave for some time. However, that wave, with some bad branding, will dwindle to nothing more than a ripple. Same is to be said for any style of the MA!!

Nonetheless, I'm a firm believer that the practitioner is at fault, and not the MA!! Opinions as to Aikido's future, unfortunately depend on having practitioners that are quality and then some. One doesn't have to look any further than the practitioner to see if, for that practitioner, they are doomed or that they're going to flourish.

Proof is on the floor!!



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27636
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like with many styles, I think Aikido can be great or not so great, depending on the instructor you get and the methods of teaching they use.

The biggest concern I have with Aikido is the amount of compliance given by uke when doing techniques. I understand the need to make sure training partners aren't broken, but the most common way I see it done is through the past of least resistance, and that is not how confrontations happen. I think that this issue could be dealt with best in tweaking the training methodology of most places. But like I said, it depends on the type of instructor and school one gets.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2128


PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bushido-man96; you are so right with all your comments.

If other martial art styles had the same training issues as Aikido has, I'm sure they would be in big trouble fighting in the open martial art world.

It seems to me that Aikido is leaning or aiming towards a pre Tal Chi Chuan market. Losing the combative aspects making Aikido for the (lets pretend fighting) middle aged crowd.

As many martial art styles have their strengths and weaknesses, Aikido's weakness is not the style or it's techniques. It is the shift away from reality partner training.

Perhaps some lightweight protective gear could work for training realistically. There are thin fabrics used in the motorcycle industry for added protection and safety. Aikido safety gear; why not!

Now let's say Aikido is all kitted up for reality training. This doesn't change the (slow rag doll) attacker and the (lightning quick ESP) defender ethos. But it could be a point in the right direction.

Martial artists eventually learn to play their own game when fighting other styles. Aikido has far too much potential, once the reality training issues get sorted out, there might be a 'Brazilian Aikido, style just waiting to be discovered.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reality is that not all styles are created equal. That said one of the reasons aikido doesn't work very is because its application is flawed. The problem with any of its wrist locks is that it's just too easy to pull your arm away. This raises the question when one wouldn't want to pull their arm away. In the context of weapons that's when it applies the most. Given the combative nature of samurai fighting techniques we start to understand just how aikido has potential to be applied. If one can evade a sword swipe or any other armed attack and grab the wrists, the attacker has reason to not let go and pull away, less he leave his weapon behind. This creates a win win situation for aikido.

As far catching someone's punch and wrapping it up? Not against anyone competent
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2128


PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Aikido it is blending with the opponent's committed strength and then controlling it. Using circular motion, gravity and momentum's in Aikdo techniques.

Most informed martial artist don't usually fight by throwing their weight around (over committing) perhapse crazy attackers do.

Aikido works best against those that commit their energy in techniques. Hypothetically Aikido would work well against Muay Thai boxers; do you think this is true?

Wing Chun is a none committed style and there techniques are quick. An Akidoist would have a difficult time trying to control a Wing Chun man.
I know this from personal experience. Have you had a similar experience?

Aikido conditioning is a valuable asset for any martial artist. It is very different than other styles of conditioning. I learned that my Aikido training and conditioning was an asset while attending a JKD academy.

As many styles of martial arts seem to think that they have an advantage with grabbing or controlling an opponent physically, this might not hold up to be true against an Aikido specialist.

This conditioning being different can give an Aikidoist a surprising advantage over other styles, especially in the area of self defense.

I believe most Aikido practioners are perhaps unaware of their strong points. This is only due to not cross training with other styles.

All martial art style's suffer a bit from too much of a good thing from their constant practice with their own kind or style.

As what is seen of Aikido is usally the moves and applications. Conditioning for Aikido is not often seen. Are you aware of Aikido conditioning?
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Most informed martial artist don't usually fight by throwing their weight around (over committing) perhapse crazy attackers do.


Yes,but I'd hardly consider that a strong point that "style X works against complete novices."



Alan Armstrong wrote:
Aikido works best against those that commit their energy in techniques. Hypothetically Aikido would work well against Muay Thai boxers; do you think this is true?


No. Not in the slightest degree....ever....under any circumstances


Alan Armstrong wrote:
Wing Chun is a none committed style and there techniques are quick. An Akidoist would have a difficult time trying to control a Wing Chun man.
I know this from personal experience. Have you had a similar experience?


Yes. I find they have a very difficult time applying anything at all to be honest. I mean, Im trying to be as unpartial as possible, but aikido is not meant for hand to hand unarmed combat. Every circumstance I've even encountered, seen, or heard of reaffirms this. Ive never seen an aikido technique work that wasnt employed during a demo

Alan Armstrong wrote:
As many styles of martial arts seem to think that they have an advantage with grabbing or controlling an opponent physically, this might not hold up to be true against an Aikido specialist.


Same statement above holds true to this. Usually I see an aikido specialist attempt a wrist lock or something only to be thrown or taken down when doing so.... Thats the problem. The hips are EVERYTHING when it pertains to fighting (especially grappling). Aikido tends to fall short so often because its focusing on a part of the body thats a far as possible from controlling/ attacking the hips.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2128


PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Aikido demonstrations there is an entertainment value for the public. Using Ki power. This unrealistic look and feel does create skepticism to none Aikido martial artists, the public accepts it all, why?

If the rest of the none Aikido martial artists have strong reservations on the validity of it's style, then how is it that it has such a high rating with public support?

Policeman are known to use Aikido techniques to detain a suspect, would the police be better prepared using BJJ or any other style of ma?

Do the police use Aikido because weapon defence is a part of the Aikodo way, wear as BJJ or other grappling styles are not weapon oriented?
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