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chrissyp
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Styles: Muay Thai/ Shotokan

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:05 pm    Post subject: "American Kickboxing" An underated art forum? Reply with quote

So as times progress, American kickboxing, as it appears to me, is a dying art, taking back stage to Muay Thai and other styles.

As I study the history of the art, mostly when it came down to "KB vs Muay thai" fights, I noticed a few things

KB'ers, American style, usually did pretty damn good against thai stylist. The way they blended Karate and traditional boxing make for a unique style that blended to each other very well.

KB weakness, being the lack of leg kicks. Every knows this. But if you look at fighters today, who have a traditional karate/Kickboxing background, like Raymond Daniels, and Stephan Wonderboy Thomas for example, they're amazing strikers, and they're style is or is similar to american kickboxing.

I feel if you adjust this style to deal with leg kicks appropratly, you got a potential force to deal with. Keep in mind I said THIS STYLE. The emphasis on the side stand, the using of side kicks as jabs, ext. NOT K1 style of fighitng, but American kickboxing.

So does anyone else feel its an underrated style?
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Underrated? No! Dying? Yes!

I enjoyed watching it when it was the rage of the page. Fighters like Joe Lewis and Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, Jeff Smith, Bill Wallace, and on and on and on.

However, things like MMA and UFC are now the rage of the page; the newness of it all appeals to a much more wider audience than American Kickboxing could ever hope for.



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chrissyp
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Underrated? No! Dying? Yes!

I enjoyed watching it when it was the rage of the page. Fighters like Joe Lewis and Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, Jeff Smith, Bill Wallace, and on and on and on.

However, things like MMA and UFC are now the rage of the page; the newness of it all appeals to a much more wider audience than American Kickboxing could ever hope for.




I agree! I mean "underrated" in the sense that the way it flows punchs and kicks together, its techniques and style of fighting, are overlooked in favor of muay Thai.

From personal experience, I started off with boxing and Tae Kwon do. I then went on to do Muay Thai for about 10 years, which is my predominate style I guess you would say... But after learning Shotokan Karate for year, and focusing on my boxing, American kickboxing, to me, feels "natural" because it feels like an amazing blend of boxing and karate (which IS what it is historically) and for me, feels more "right" personally.

Though keep in mind i'm used to leg kicks, knees, and elbows...I still believe KB has a lot of potential that is being overlooked, as you said, because of MMA. All those fighters, were all amazing. Benny The jet is one of my all time favorite fighters in ANYTHING
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TJ-Jitsu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh, I mean its solid but there are pros and cons to every style.

Personally, the reason I see it doing well (from a small group of fighters...) in MMA is precisely because the people they're fighting have lousy muay thai.

Works like this- sideway stance gives you lots of mobility and speed at the expense of power. Many of the fighters in the UFC are boxers and not proficient at thai. It might be more appropriate to say those that have the muay thai skill set stand in such a way that they're unable to utilize their leg kicks....

So theres your problem- people trying to trade punches with a style (stance) that favors greater speed and mobility. These fighters found their niche- so many people stopped throwing kicks in MMA because wrestlers were willing to eat them for a takedown. Now you've got very mobile fighters that are making them pay the price....

Same thing that beats that game is the same thing that did it some 30 years ago.....
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chrissyp
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Meh, I mean its solid but there are pros and cons to every style.

Personally, the reason I see it doing well (from a small group of fighters...) in MMA is precisely because the people they're fighting have lousy muay thai.

Works like this- sideway stance gives you lots of mobility and speed at the expense of power. Many of the fighters in the UFC are boxers and not proficient at thai. It might be more appropriate to say those that have the muay thai skill set stand in such a way that they're unable to utilize their leg kicks....

So theres your problem- people trying to trade punches with a style (stance) that favors greater speed and mobility. These fighters found their niche- so many people stopped throwing kicks in MMA because wrestlers were willing to eat them for a takedown. Now you've got very mobile fighters that are making them pay the price....

Same thing that beats that game is the same thing that did it some 30 years ago.....

That would be legs kicks i'm assuming? As that always been the achillies hill to american kickboxing. While the style does make using round house kicks more difficult, it DOES open up side kicks and side teeps and other kicks, like hook kick, which can be very powerful if done correctly
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TJ-Jitsu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrissyp wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Meh, I mean its solid but there are pros and cons to every style.

Personally, the reason I see it doing well (from a small group of fighters...) in MMA is precisely because the people they're fighting have lousy muay thai.

Works like this- sideway stance gives you lots of mobility and speed at the expense of power. Many of the fighters in the UFC are boxers and not proficient at thai. It might be more appropriate to say those that have the muay thai skill set stand in such a way that they're unable to utilize their leg kicks....

So theres your problem- people trying to trade punches with a style (stance) that favors greater speed and mobility. These fighters found their niche- so many people stopped throwing kicks in MMA because wrestlers were willing to eat them for a takedown. Now you've got very mobile fighters that are making them pay the price....

Same thing that beats that game is the same thing that did it some 30 years ago.....

That would be legs kicks i'm assuming? As that always been the achillies hill to american kickboxing. While the style does make using round house kicks more difficult, it DOES open up side kicks and side teeps and other kicks, like hook kick, which can be very powerful if done correctly


Sure, just not as powerful as your classic thai roundhouse. Discussions over which is "better" is really a discussion on strategy.

The good thing about the sideways kicks is that they're fast at the expense of power- both to deliver and move afterwards. These fighters are usually out of the pocket quickly after they've hit their opponent, leaving very little in terms of a counter attack.

The good thing about the thai roundhouse is the commitment to the strike- it'll break whatever it hits- hands, arms, faces, legs- it represents a full committment to hitting your opponent. Thats the problem though- committment. Your typical MMA fighter will eat a leg kick to get a takedown because frankly its worth it.

So theres a triad now of A beat B B beats C, C beats A.... who you're fighting is going to determine what strategy may or may not be better.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Kickboxing was great to watch. It still is, if you've got some skilled competitors. By not having the leg kicks, you got more of a "long range" fight, where the side kicks, hook kicks, and all that were utilized more. Not unlike Olympic TKD, where you get lots of kicking because hand techniques are devalued or nullified due to rules restrictions and protective equipment.

When you bring in the low kicks, it tends to bring the range of the fight closer, especially when you can clinch like you can in Muay Thai.

Whether its underrated or not, I don't know. It really has lost some of its popularity, mainly because MMA has really taken over as the style of fighting. What it ends up being more about is what is popular, what people are willing to pay to watch, thus what is worth promoting.
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chrissyp
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
chrissyp wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Meh, I mean its solid but there are pros and cons to every style.

Personally, the reason I see it doing well (from a small group of fighters...) in MMA is precisely because the people they're fighting have lousy muay thai.

Works like this- sideway stance gives you lots of mobility and speed at the expense of power. Many of the fighters in the UFC are boxers and not proficient at thai. It might be more appropriate to say those that have the muay thai skill set stand in such a way that they're unable to utilize their leg kicks....

So theres your problem- people trying to trade punches with a style (stance) that favors greater speed and mobility. These fighters found their niche- so many people stopped throwing kicks in MMA because wrestlers were willing to eat them for a takedown. Now you've got very mobile fighters that are making them pay the price....

Same thing that beats that game is the same thing that did it some 30 years ago.....

That would be legs kicks i'm assuming? As that always been the achillies hill to american kickboxing. While the style does make using round house kicks more difficult, it DOES open up side kicks and side teeps and other kicks, like hook kick, which can be very powerful if done correctly


Sure, just not as powerful as your classic thai roundhouse. Discussions over which is "better" is really a discussion on strategy.

The good thing about the sideways kicks is that they're fast at the expense of power- both to deliver and move afterwards. These fighters are usually out of the pocket quickly after they've hit their opponent, leaving very little in terms of a counter attack.

The good thing about the thai roundhouse is the commitment to the strike- it'll break whatever it hits- hands, arms, faces, legs- it represents a full committment to hitting your opponent. Thats the problem though- committment. Your typical MMA fighter will eat a leg kick to get a takedown because frankly its worth it.

So theres a triad now of A beat B B beats C, C beats A.... who you're fighting is going to determine what strategy may or may not be better.
couldn't agree more. I've done Muay Thai as the majority of my martial arts training....The interest in American KB comes from learning shotokan at the recent and how well it can flow combined with traditional boxing, which gave me and insight and feeling for how KB works.
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TJ-Jitsu
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrissyp wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
chrissyp wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Meh, I mean its solid but there are pros and cons to every style.

Personally, the reason I see it doing well (from a small group of fighters...) in MMA is precisely because the people they're fighting have lousy muay thai.

Works like this- sideway stance gives you lots of mobility and speed at the expense of power. Many of the fighters in the UFC are boxers and not proficient at thai. It might be more appropriate to say those that have the muay thai skill set stand in such a way that they're unable to utilize their leg kicks....

So theres your problem- people trying to trade punches with a style (stance) that favors greater speed and mobility. These fighters found their niche- so many people stopped throwing kicks in MMA because wrestlers were willing to eat them for a takedown. Now you've got very mobile fighters that are making them pay the price....

Same thing that beats that game is the same thing that did it some 30 years ago.....

That would be legs kicks i'm assuming? As that always been the achillies hill to american kickboxing. While the style does make using round house kicks more difficult, it DOES open up side kicks and side teeps and other kicks, like hook kick, which can be very powerful if done correctly


Sure, just not as powerful as your classic thai roundhouse. Discussions over which is "better" is really a discussion on strategy.

The good thing about the sideways kicks is that they're fast at the expense of power- both to deliver and move afterwards. These fighters are usually out of the pocket quickly after they've hit their opponent, leaving very little in terms of a counter attack.

The good thing about the thai roundhouse is the commitment to the strike- it'll break whatever it hits- hands, arms, faces, legs- it represents a full committment to hitting your opponent. Thats the problem though- committment. Your typical MMA fighter will eat a leg kick to get a takedown because frankly its worth it.

So theres a triad now of A beat B B beats C, C beats A.... who you're fighting is going to determine what strategy may or may not be better.
couldn't agree more. I've done Muay Thai as the majority of my martial arts training....The interest in American KB comes from learning shotokan at the recent and how well it can flow combined with traditional boxing, which gave me and insight and feeling for how KB works.


Curious... what made you start shotokan?
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chrissyp
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
chrissyp wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
chrissyp wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Meh, I mean its solid but there are pros and cons to every style.

Personally, the reason I see it doing well (from a small group of fighters...) in MMA is precisely because the people they're fighting have lousy muay thai.

Works like this- sideway stance gives you lots of mobility and speed at the expense of power. Many of the fighters in the UFC are boxers and not proficient at thai. It might be more appropriate to say those that have the muay thai skill set stand in such a way that they're unable to utilize their leg kicks....

So theres your problem- people trying to trade punches with a style (stance) that favors greater speed and mobility. These fighters found their niche- so many people stopped throwing kicks in MMA because wrestlers were willing to eat them for a takedown. Now you've got very mobile fighters that are making them pay the price....

Same thing that beats that game is the same thing that did it some 30 years ago.....

That would be legs kicks i'm assuming? As that always been the achillies hill to american kickboxing. While the style does make using round house kicks more difficult, it DOES open up side kicks and side teeps and other kicks, like hook kick, which can be very powerful if done correctly


Sure, just not as powerful as your classic thai roundhouse. Discussions over which is "better" is really a discussion on strategy.

The good thing about the sideways kicks is that they're fast at the expense of power- both to deliver and move afterwards. These fighters are usually out of the pocket quickly after they've hit their opponent, leaving very little in terms of a counter attack.

The good thing about the thai roundhouse is the commitment to the strike- it'll break whatever it hits- hands, arms, faces, legs- it represents a full committment to hitting your opponent. Thats the problem though- committment. Your typical MMA fighter will eat a leg kick to get a takedown because frankly its worth it.

So theres a triad now of A beat B B beats C, C beats A.... who you're fighting is going to determine what strategy may or may not be better.
couldn't agree more. I've done Muay Thai as the majority of my martial arts training....The interest in American KB comes from learning shotokan at the recent and how well it can flow combined with traditional boxing, which gave me and insight and feeling for how KB works.


Curious... what made you start shotokan?

There was a lot of reasons...I wasn't able to train Muay Thai, and my friend who is a shotokan instructor offered to train me for free, if I would help out cross training her students in muay thai/help with the sparring, to mix it up.

One reason I took it up, was at the time I was focused on trying to fight MMA, and the thing I like about Shotokan, and the biggest interest point actually: The blocks. In boxing/muay thai, a lot of defense techniques are based/rely on gloves. I took interested in shotokan to learn defense techniques that would seem more suited for MMA/bareknuckle.

and its been good! Taught me a lot of new striking strategies, new techniques. A lot of the stuff is great, and can be used very well in full contact situation or MMA, but it requires some adjustment to make it more suited for such situations.

But it had a lot of similar fundimentals to boxing I found, with the stance, application of techniques. This is where I found interested in American kickboxing, from the similarties and how well i found it meshed.
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