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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
I'm always amazed when i see the USA costs of training. For reference i pay £6 per session for my karate class and i pay £65 per month for my bjj class (which is with a Black Belt, so no lower price due to coloured belt coach etc.)


There's a whole culture of high priced MA services. A part of it is this American belief that we can make our living doing something like running a dojo and all it takes is hard work. I know that this is not a specifically American belief, but it certainly is loud here. This is exacerbated by people who have been successful doing something like this (e.g. Jesse Enkamp) and feeling that they can do it better. Another part is our belief that price = quality, so if I'm paying $150 for something that someone is paying $80 for, then I know that my education is of a higher caliber than theirs. (Internalized classism is rampant throughout the Western world, so it is no wonder than it plays here).

Sometimes compromise is necessary. Maybe a dojo doesn't tick all of the boxes but it ticks enough of them to be worth while. I currently pay $65/month unlimited classes for my dojo. The Shihan and other Sensei have daytime jobs, and this is their passion project. They teach karate in a way that I like, are serious about their training, and their students are typically tested when they should be and not just because the school wanted to lower turnover. I like the people there, and I enjoy my time. Do they have everything that I am looking for? Absolutely not. There are things that I wish we did differently. Some of those things are things that I just wish we did more (like sparring, but with COVID still around I am more than understanding as to why it's not as prevalent). There are some things that I don't think we need to do as much of. But at the end of the day, it's not my dojo, it's the dojo where I train. When I achieve a rank where I can open my own school (Nidan, by the dojos standards, Sandan by my own), I can train my students in whatever way I find best.

All of this to say: Sometimes you have to compromise with a school that isn't perfect for you so that you can be the perfect school for you. There is no perfect school or student, but only you can train yourself in the way that you want. Martials Arts training is 30% classroom, 70% personal training.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15921
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commercial dojo's can be as selective as they want. Do I teach adults? Do I teach children? Do I teach exclusively one or the other? Do I teach both? I believe that those answers depend on said overhead; one must pay the bills.

Signing up adults isn't any easier than signing up children. Demographics that surround one's dojo says quite a lot of what type of prospective students a dojo can hope for. If adults seem to be on the lower side of the demographic, then one has to figure out what it might take to draw in more prospective adult students.

Remember, any business has to appeal to their customer base. is learning the MA a need or a want? The difference before 'needs' and 'wants' is that everyone must meet their 'need', whether it be rent, food, and shelter. Not everyone must meet their 'want', whether it be entertainment, video games, and travel. The MA, imho, is just that...a 'want'.

As sophisticated as an adult might believe they are, they've the ability to decide for themselves without needing permission, like a minor student does from their parent(s)/guardian(s). The trick is to change the assumed 'want' into a 'need', or at least make their 'want' so irresistible that they believe that they truly 'need' the MA.

Business is war!

If the lack of prospective adults is of a dire concern, and bills for the dojo must be meet, then signing up children help to fill that financial must. Sure, either demographic is easier or more satisfying to teach, I get that, albeit, but as the CI, I believe that the desire to teach must be greater than which preferred demographic first.

One thing I did from day one is I tattered to the Day. I ran a full-time dojo from morning to night, I was fortunate to be able to do that my entire adult life. I knew that that was what I wanted to do. Therefore, I offered Day Classes to all demographics.

For those who only teach at night, the trial by fire applies. To pique the interest of the Night adult student, you're going to have to find that formula of marketing that set you on fire...that which sets you apart from your competition, even if that means looking at the way YOU teach.

We all have that one chance to make an impression. Whether it be a good one or a bad one. One of the other will attract prospective students or push them far away. Marketing can be simple, but it's the fine tuning of that marketing, and the inevitable change in the marketing strategy that too, sets the business apart.

If your reputation precedes you, it means people have heard things about you, your dojo, or both before they actually meet you. These things can be positive or negative. They can also be true or false for that matter. Sometimes, people’s reputations are built upon gossip and rumors, so it is only after meeting someone that he or she can correct the record about his or her reputation.

Now, figure it out and go out a find your prospective adult students. If not, keep teaching children, if need be. Good luck and believe in yourself!!



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LionsDen
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Commercial dojo's can be as selective as they want. Do I teach adults? Do I teach children? Do I teach exclusively one or the other? Do I teach both? I believe that those answers depend on said overhead; one must pay the bills.

Signing up adults isn't any easier than signing up children. Demographics that surround one's dojo says quite a lot of what type of prospective students a dojo can hope for. If adults seem to be on the lower side of the demographic, then one has to figure out what it might take to draw in more prospective adult students.

Remember, any business has to appeal to their customer base. is learning the MA a need or a want? The difference before 'needs' and 'wants' is that everyone must meet their 'need', whether it be rent, food, and shelter. Not everyone must meet their 'want', whether it be entertainment, video games, and travel. The MA, imho, is just that...a 'want'.

As sophisticated as an adult might believe they are, they've the ability to decide for themselves without needing permission, like a minor student does from their parent(s)/guardian(s). The trick is to change the assumed 'want' into a 'need', or at least make their 'want' so irresistible that they believe that they truly 'need' the MA.

Business is war!

If the lack of prospective adults is of a dire concern, and bills for the dojo must be meet, then signing up children help to fill that financial must. Sure, either demographic is easier or more satisfying to teach, I get that, albeit, but as the CI, I believe that the desire to teach must be greater than which preferred demographic first.

One thing I did from day one is I tattered to the Day. I ran a full-time dojo from morning to night, I was fortunate to be able to do that my entire adult life. I knew that that was what I wanted to do. Therefore, I offered Day Classes to all demographics.

For those who only teach at night, the trial by fire applies. To pique the interest of the Night adult student, you're going to have to find that formula of marketing that set you on fire...that which sets you apart from your competition, even if that means looking at the way YOU teach.

We all have that one chance to make an impression. Whether it be a good one or a bad one. One of the other will attract prospective students or push them far away. Marketing can be simple, but it's the fine tuning of that marketing, and the inevitable change in the marketing strategy that too, sets the business apart.

If your reputation precedes you, it means people have heard things about you, your dojo, or both before they actually meet you. These things can be positive or negative. They can also be true or false for that matter. Sometimes, people’s reputations are built upon gossip and rumors, so it is only after meeting someone that he or she can correct the record about his or her reputation.

Now, figure it out and go out a find your prospective adult students. If not, keep teaching children, if need be. Good luck and believe in yourself!!


yep, some times the situation dictates the terms by which we teach.

my preferred age group is older teens and adults.
then i found a place directly across from an elementary school, and i had to decide, is teaching 5-11 year olds worse work than doing security? nope. little kids karate classes it is!
though once that gets really up off the ground and takes off i'll probably start a few day classes for adults as well.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15921
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Commercial dojo's can be as selective as they want. Do I teach adults? Do I teach children? Do I teach exclusively one or the other? Do I teach both? I believe that those answers depend on said overhead; one must pay the bills.

Signing up adults isn't any easier than signing up children. Demographics that surround one's dojo says quite a lot of what type of prospective students a dojo can hope for. If adults seem to be on the lower side of the demographic, then one has to figure out what it might take to draw in more prospective adult students.

Remember, any business has to appeal to their customer base. is learning the MA a need or a want? The difference before 'needs' and 'wants' is that everyone must meet their 'need', whether it be rent, food, and shelter. Not everyone must meet their 'want', whether it be entertainment, video games, and travel. The MA, imho, is just that...a 'want'.

As sophisticated as an adult might believe they are, they've the ability to decide for themselves without needing permission, like a minor student does from their parent(s)/guardian(s). The trick is to change the assumed 'want' into a 'need', or at least make their 'want' so irresistible that they believe that they truly 'need' the MA.

Business is war!

If the lack of prospective adults is of a dire concern, and bills for the dojo must be meet, then signing up children help to fill that financial must. Sure, either demographic is easier or more satisfying to teach, I get that, albeit, but as the CI, I believe that the desire to teach must be greater than which preferred demographic first.

One thing I did from day one is I tattered to the Day. I ran a full-time dojo from morning to night, I was fortunate to be able to do that my entire adult life. I knew that that was what I wanted to do. Therefore, I offered Day Classes to all demographics.

For those who only teach at night, the trial by fire applies. To pique the interest of the Night adult student, you're going to have to find that formula of marketing that set you on fire...that which sets you apart from your competition, even if that means looking at the way YOU teach.

We all have that one chance to make an impression. Whether it be a good one or a bad one. One of the other will attract prospective students or push them far away. Marketing can be simple, but it's the fine tuning of that marketing, and the inevitable change in the marketing strategy that too, sets the business apart.

If your reputation precedes you, it means people have heard things about you, your dojo, or both before they actually meet you. These things can be positive or negative. They can also be true or false for that matter. Sometimes, people’s reputations are built upon gossip and rumors, so it is only after meeting someone that he or she can correct the record about his or her reputation.

Now, figure it out and go out a find your prospective adult students. If not, keep teaching children, if need be. Good luck and believe in yourself!!


yep, some times the situation dictates the terms by which we teach.

my preferred age group is older teens and adults.
then i found a place directly across from an elementary school, and i had to decide, is teaching 5-11 year olds worse work than doing security? nope. little kids karate classes it is!
though once that gets really up off the ground and takes off i'll probably start a few day classes for adults as well.

Solid post...especially the bold type.



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R5ky
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 50


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Commercial dojo's can be as selective as they want. Do I teach adults? Do I teach children? Do I teach exclusively one or the other? Do I teach both? I believe that those answers depend on said overhead; one must pay the bills.

Signing up adults isn't any easier than signing up children. Demographics that surround one's dojo says quite a lot of what type of prospective students a dojo can hope for. If adults seem to be on the lower side of the demographic, then one has to figure out what it might take to draw in more prospective adult students.

Remember, any business has to appeal to their customer base. is learning the MA a need or a want? The difference before 'needs' and 'wants' is that everyone must meet their 'need', whether it be rent, food, and shelter. Not everyone must meet their 'want', whether it be entertainment, video games, and travel. The MA, imho, is just that...a 'want'.

As sophisticated as an adult might believe they are, they've the ability to decide for themselves without needing permission, like a minor student does from their parent(s)/guardian(s). The trick is to change the assumed 'want' into a 'need', or at least make their 'want' so irresistible that they believe that they truly 'need' the MA.

Business is war!

If the lack of prospective adults is of a dire concern, and bills for the dojo must be meet, then signing up children help to fill that financial must. Sure, either demographic is easier or more satisfying to teach, I get that, albeit, but as the CI, I believe that the desire to teach must be greater than which preferred demographic first.

One thing I did from day one is I tattered to the Day. I ran a full-time dojo from morning to night, I was fortunate to be able to do that my entire adult life. I knew that that was what I wanted to do. Therefore, I offered Day Classes to all demographics.

For those who only teach at night, the trial by fire applies. To pique the interest of the Night adult student, you're going to have to find that formula of marketing that set you on fire...that which sets you apart from your competition, even if that means looking at the way YOU teach.

We all have that one chance to make an impression. Whether it be a good one or a bad one. One of the other will attract prospective students or push them far away. Marketing can be simple, but it's the fine tuning of that marketing, and the inevitable change in the marketing strategy that too, sets the business apart.

If your reputation precedes you, it means people have heard things about you, your dojo, or both before they actually meet you. These things can be positive or negative. They can also be true or false for that matter. Sometimes, people’s reputations are built upon gossip and rumors, so it is only after meeting someone that he or she can correct the record about his or her reputation.

Now, figure it out and go out a find your prospective adult students. If not, keep teaching children, if need be. Good luck and believe in yourself!!



excellent post; following the explanation, I more clearly see the commercial justification.


from the perspective of a customer, I always want to get what I paid for and will, of course, search for the best deal available.

After everything is said and done, all I have to do is keep an eye out for a location that will meet my specific demands.
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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
from the perspective of a customer, I always want to get what I paid for and will, of course, search for the best deal available.

After everything is said and done, all I have to do is keep an eye out for a location that will meet my specific demands.


Just remember in the States sometimes you get what youn pay for! In Japan it's dirt cheap to practice Martial Arts. But in the States it's a business and nothing cheap in the States thesedays!
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:
Quote:
Commercial dojo's can be as selective as they want. Do I teach adults? Do I teach children? Do I teach exclusively one or the other? Do I teach both? I believe that those answers depend on said overhead; one must pay the bills.

Signing up adults isn't any easier than signing up children. Demographics that surround one's dojo says quite a lot of what type of prospective students a dojo can hope for. If adults seem to be on the lower side of the demographic, then one has to figure out what it might take to draw in more prospective adult students.

Remember, any business has to appeal to their customer base. is learning the MA a need or a want? The difference before 'needs' and 'wants' is that everyone must meet their 'need', whether it be rent, food, and shelter. Not everyone must meet their 'want', whether it be entertainment, video games, and travel. The MA, imho, is just that...a 'want'.

As sophisticated as an adult might believe they are, they've the ability to decide for themselves without needing permission, like a minor student does from their parent(s)/guardian(s). The trick is to change the assumed 'want' into a 'need', or at least make their 'want' so irresistible that they believe that they truly 'need' the MA.

Business is war!

If the lack of prospective adults is of a dire concern, and bills for the dojo must be meet, then signing up children help to fill that financial must. Sure, either demographic is easier or more satisfying to teach, I get that, albeit, but as the CI, I believe that the desire to teach must be greater than which preferred demographic first.

One thing I did from day one is I tattered to the Day. I ran a full-time dojo from morning to night, I was fortunate to be able to do that my entire adult life. I knew that that was what I wanted to do. Therefore, I offered Day Classes to all demographics.

For those who only teach at night, the trial by fire applies. To pique the interest of the Night adult student, you're going to have to find that formula of marketing that set you on fire...that which sets you apart from your competition, even if that means looking at the way YOU teach.

We all have that one chance to make an impression. Whether it be a good one or a bad one. One of the other will attract prospective students or push them far away. Marketing can be simple, but it's the fine tuning of that marketing, and the inevitable change in the marketing strategy that too, sets the business apart.

If your reputation precedes you, it means people have heard things about you, your dojo, or both before they actually meet you. These things can be positive or negative. They can also be true or false for that matter. Sometimes, people’s reputations are built upon gossip and rumors, so it is only after meeting someone that he or she can correct the record about his or her reputation.

Now, figure it out and go out a find your prospective adult students. If not, keep teaching children, if need be. Good luck and believe in yourself!!



excellent post; following the explanation, I more clearly see the commercial justification.


from the perspective of a customer, I always want to get what I paid for and will, of course, search for the best deal available.

After everything is said and done, all I have to do is keep an eye out for a location that will meet my specific demands.

How do you judge getting your money’s worth?

Do you base that only on length and number of classes you get?
Do you base that on how long the instructor(s)

Like I said I charge $25 per class, 50 minutes per class.
However I have over 20 years experience, have point fighting championship, experience fighting and coaching MMA, and experience from ‘real world’ violence.
My rate is not cheap, but to find people with similar experience and background you’d likely be looking at $50+/hr
And in similar areas, training is even more expensive for even less experience, and for people with real world experience you can be looking at about $500–$1000 for a 4-5 hour class, or roughly $100-$200/hr
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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
R5ky wrote:
Quote:
Commercial dojo's can be as selective as they want. Do I teach adults? Do I teach children? Do I teach exclusively one or the other? Do I teach both? I believe that those answers depend on said overhead; one must pay the bills.

Signing up adults isn't any easier than signing up children. Demographics that surround one's dojo says quite a lot of what type of prospective students a dojo can hope for. If adults seem to be on the lower side of the demographic, then one has to figure out what it might take to draw in more prospective adult students.

Remember, any business has to appeal to their customer base. is learning the MA a need or a want? The difference before 'needs' and 'wants' is that everyone must meet their 'need', whether it be rent, food, and shelter. Not everyone must meet their 'want', whether it be entertainment, video games, and travel. The MA, imho, is just that...a 'want'.

As sophisticated as an adult might believe they are, they've the ability to decide for themselves without needing permission, like a minor student does from their parent(s)/guardian(s). The trick is to change the assumed 'want' into a 'need', or at least make their 'want' so irresistible that they believe that they truly 'need' the MA.

Business is war!

If the lack of prospective adults is of a dire concern, and bills for the dojo must be meet, then signing up children help to fill that financial must. Sure, either demographic is easier or more satisfying to teach, I get that, albeit, but as the CI, I believe that the desire to teach must be greater than which preferred demographic first.

One thing I did from day one is I tattered to the Day. I ran a full-time dojo from morning to night, I was fortunate to be able to do that my entire adult life. I knew that that was what I wanted to do. Therefore, I offered Day Classes to all demographics.

For those who only teach at night, the trial by fire applies. To pique the interest of the Night adult student, you're going to have to find that formula of marketing that set you on fire...that which sets you apart from your competition, even if that means looking at the way YOU teach.

We all have that one chance to make an impression. Whether it be a good one or a bad one. One of the other will attract prospective students or push them far away. Marketing can be simple, but it's the fine tuning of that marketing, and the inevitable change in the marketing strategy that too, sets the business apart.

If your reputation precedes you, it means people have heard things about you, your dojo, or both before they actually meet you. These things can be positive or negative. They can also be true or false for that matter. Sometimes, people’s reputations are built upon gossip and rumors, so it is only after meeting someone that he or she can correct the record about his or her reputation.

Now, figure it out and go out a find your prospective adult students. If not, keep teaching children, if need be. Good luck and believe in yourself!!



excellent post; following the explanation, I more clearly see the commercial justification.


from the perspective of a customer, I always want to get what I paid for and will, of course, search for the best deal available.

After everything is said and done, all I have to do is keep an eye out for a location that will meet my specific demands.

How do you judge getting your money’s worth?

Do you base that only on length and number of classes you get?
Do you base that on how long the instructor(s)

Like I said I charge $25 per class, 50 minutes per class.
However I have over 20 years experience, have point fighting championship, experience fighting and coaching MMA, and experience from ‘real world’ violence.
My rate is not cheap, but to find people with similar experience and background you’d likely be looking at $50+/hr
And in similar areas, training is even more expensive for even less experience, and for people with real world experience you can be looking at about $500–$1000 for a 4-5 hour class, or roughly $100-$200/hr


exactly Lions Den.

You have to get what you think you are worth and if students want to be looky lous or go for a better deal the door is wide open. Know your worth and never budge.

I get tired of people trying to barter with me! On the other hand I always search for the best way to use my hard earned money. But I pay based on what I think I can get out of it!

I have taken classes with Higher level senseis and I don't mind cause they have a proven track record.

There are so many Mc Dojos and under qualified instructors but there are also great ones that deserve the extra recognition which sometimes equals money, unfortunately. As an instructor never sell yourself short but also give back to the community. I volunteer for special needs students and the elderly.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15921
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, if I as the CI exercises my Student Body to death and talks most of the class, then I'm not providing them their monies worth. There must be quality over quantity on the floor.




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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2646
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have already received some very good responses, but I will jump in to add that most of the instructors who teach on the side of a regular job--who are more likely to teach adult classes, and at a lower price--often teach out of their homes. That is what I'm doing, for the time being, although I'm sticking with private lessons, at the moment. This can be problematic, as they often don't advertise, and they often end up taking students on referral. You can try asking instructors in your area if they know anyone teaching like that, because they probably do. Depending on how desperate they are for business, they may or may not give you the information, but it's worth a try.
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