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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Tempest wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Is MMA a style or a set of rules, or both? |
MMA is a concept. It is also a codified rule-set. The idea behind the rule-set being to avoid forbidding as many martially valid techniques as possible and still have a valid sport that the public can watch.
The early UFC's, and before them the Gracie Challenges, had few if any real rules, as has already been stated. What's interesting is the fact that, other than the quality of what is being done, the rules that have been added have not significantly affected "what works" in the cage.
The idea here is put up or shut up. If you want to make a claim about how effective a martial art is for it's intended purpose, which for most of them is either fighting, self defense, or warfare, then put your money where your mouth is and fight.
The truth is, MMA gives every martial art a roughly even chance as long as it is based on martially valid principles. The top athletes rise to the top, but just about anybody can compete at the lower levels, with the caveat that whatever you have been doing will be put to a much more extreme test than most people ever face, so you will need to be ready for that.
If you think compliant training is going to get you ready for a fight on it's own, be prepared for a rude awakening when you step in to a real encounter.
I have seen everything from simple punches, complex ground combinations, and even jump, spinning roundhouse kicks off the side of the fence, ALL work in the cage, but they all had one thing in common.
The people practicing them trained in an alive manner consistently against intelligently resisting opponents.
That's it. That's the super secret sauce right there.
Link to article on aliveness:
http://mattthornton.org/its-aliveness-still/ |
Thanks Tempest:
It’s Aliveness – Still
That's it. That's the super secret sauce right there.
Link to article on aliveness:
http://mattthornton.org/its-aliveness-still/
I have experience in a JKD Dan Inosanto indorsed club.
It wasn't Bruce Lee concepts and philosophy based.
It was however very stick fighting based with a strong Inosanto flavour.
They were awarding black belts but funny enough colored belts were not worn in class.
Having been a fan of Bruce Lee since the opening of "Enter the Dragon" in about 1973, for 30 years, just must know a little about JKD.
The curriculum in my opinion was street defense oriented, with and without weapons.
It was Insonatosized devoid or any Bruce Lee's JKD, including concepts and philosophy; actually I was binging JKD in to the class, instead of being taught it by anyone there.
The head instructor was however a very capable martial artist and fighter.
I will have a look at the videos and read the article again, thanks Tempest. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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How did I miss this one? What an opportunity to stir the pot!
So at the heart of it, your cage fighters are your best fighters because of a very simple reason- experience against fully resisting opponents who know what they're doing and are also full time professional fighters themselves. I do not play nice when it comes to "respect" and martial arts. If you're going to claim you can do half as good, I'm going to put you on the spot and ask you to back it up- it's only fair. Maybe you actually can and you have sometime valuable I can learn, but maybe you actually can't and your mind is playing tricks on you. If you haven't moved with pros on a regular basis that's usually the most common result.
Most of the illegal techniques limit grapplers over strikers for that matter. MMA is a rule set so mma fighters are no more grapplers than they are strikers. It really is the easiest thing in the world- just fight a pro and show us what you've got.
I don't intend to be so blunt (I do but I want to do so gently if that makes sense) but I hear this way too often from people that haven't actually been in a fight let alone against a professional fighter. Pro fighters tend to win these contests overwhelmingly because they actually know what a resisting opponent feels like. That's all I care about. Call your style whatever you want. Are you going full contact? Cool if so. If not, you're trying to critique Olympic swimmers without ever having gotten wet yourself.... |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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It's not practical for everyone to be sparring with pros on a daily basis; especially when most people have a life other than fighting.
It's fine developing great fighting skills, but it is more important to learn how to have necessary skills for living also, that can be learned in none fanatical, over competitive martial art environments.
The cage is a very small place compared to the rest of the world, something like a gold fish bowl compared to the ocean; and there are bigger tougher fish outside of the bowl than those in side it.
Try yourself out in a prison, fighting somewhere like in El Salvador; then tell us how you got on with the resisting theory.
Last edited by Alan Armstrong on Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
It's not practical for everyone to be sparring with pros on a daily basis; especially when most people have a life other than fighting.
It's fine developing great fighting skills, but it is more important to learn how to have necessary skills for living also, that can be learned in none fanatical, over competitive martial art environments.
The cage is a very small place compared to the rest of the world, something like a gold fish bowl compared to the ocean; and there are bigger tougher fish outside of the bowl than those in side it. |
Its the other way around. Can't tell you how many "local tough guys" across the world I've ran into that were laughable. Beyond me there are also videos of said local guys picking fights with the wrong one and get wrecked.
Fighting is a science. Your arguments are akin to saying the NFL isn't the best footballers because there are other big and bad guys out there....
But they don't play football...
Against other pros...
Full time no less...
There is a reason these are the best fighters in the world. You don't have to like it and it by no means suggests what you're doing is worthless or ineffective, but lol at all these mystical tough guys that never seem to materialize anywhere in the world... |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Not all tough guys are stupid and not all intelligent people are tough, but there are tough intelligent fighters that make a living in other ways outside of a cage.
Real cage fighting is done in prisons that are not shown on pay per view.
Why not set up a match between cage fighters inside ones and out, the winner gets his freedom and the other takes his place. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Try yourself out in a prison, fighting somewhere like in El Salvador; then tell us how you got on with the resisting theory. |
Interesting suggestion....
Unfortunately for your argument I used to be a prison guard. I've got some insight for you- being a felon or a "bad dude" doesn't instill magical fighting prowess. In fact if you want to see some interesting examples you can even look up felony fights on YouTube. There was one where a modestly trained mma fighter in shad smith fought a guy who "just didn't care" because he was "crazy." As you would have guessed, shad toyed with the guy, because he's a pro fighter.
You're failing to justify any arguments you make and are trying to appeal to fantasies
"These guys MUST be crazy killers because they're in PRISON"
I fail to see the correlation between being a criminal and being a skilled fighter. Watch those felony fights. Those guys are- you guessed it- former felons. You'll see just how "not professional" they are.... |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Try yourself out in a prison, fighting somewhere like in El Salvador; then tell us how you got on with the resisting theory. |
Interesting suggestion....
Unfortunately for your argument I used to be a prison guard. I've got some insight for you- being a felon or a "bad dude" doesn't instill magical fighting prowess. In fact if you want to see some interesting examples you can even look up felony fights on YouTube. There was one where a modestly trained mma fighter in shad smith fought a guy who "just didn't care" because he was "crazy." As you would have guessed, shad toyed with the guy, because he's a pro fighter.
You're failing to justify any arguments you make and are trying to appeal to fantasies
"These guys MUST be crazy killers because they're in PRISON"
I fail to see the correlation between being a criminal and being a skilled fighter. Watch those felony fights. Those guys are- you guessed it- former felons. You'll see just how "not professional" they are.... |
So you are saying that, the best fighters are cage fighters due to practicing resistance training with each other; whereas traditional martial artists are below them in every way, skill wise due to this reason? |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Try yourself out in a prison, fighting somewhere like in El Salvador; then tell us how you got on with the resisting theory. |
Interesting suggestion....
Unfortunately for your argument I used to be a prison guard. I've got some insight for you- being a felon or a "bad dude" doesn't instill magical fighting prowess. In fact if you want to see some interesting examples you can even look up felony fights on YouTube. There was one where a modestly trained mma fighter in shad smith fought a guy who "just didn't care" because he was "crazy." As you would have guessed, shad toyed with the guy, because he's a pro fighter.
You're failing to justify any arguments you make and are trying to appeal to fantasies
"These guys MUST be crazy killers because they're in PRISON"
I fail to see the correlation between being a criminal and being a skilled fighter. Watch those felony fights. Those guys are- you guessed it- former felons. You'll see just how "not professional" they are.... |
So you are saying that, the best fighters are cage fighters due to practicing resistance training with each other; whereas traditional martial artists are below them in every way, skill wise due to this reason? |
I know that this question isn't directed to me. I apologize for my perked up ears on the bold type above...
I'm a traditional MAist, and I'm not below anyone; I can not, and I will not subscribe to that, nor will my resolve subscribe to that either. Shindokan is all about resistance training from day one.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Try yourself out in a prison, fighting somewhere like in El Salvador; then tell us how you got on with the resisting theory. |
Interesting suggestion....
Unfortunately for your argument I used to be a prison guard. I've got some insight for you- being a felon or a "bad dude" doesn't instill magical fighting prowess. In fact if you want to see some interesting examples you can even look up felony fights on YouTube. There was one where a modestly trained mma fighter in shad smith fought a guy who "just didn't care" because he was "crazy." As you would have guessed, shad toyed with the guy, because he's a pro fighter.
You're failing to justify any arguments you make and are trying to appeal to fantasies
"These guys MUST be crazy killers because they're in PRISON"
I fail to see the correlation between being a criminal and being a skilled fighter. Watch those felony fights. Those guys are- you guessed it- former felons. You'll see just how "not professional" they are.... |
So you are saying that, the best fighters are cage fighters due to practicing resistance training with each other; whereas traditional martial artists are below them in every way, skill wise due to this reason? |
To be a little more specific, cage fighters tend to be the best fighters because they actually practice fighting with fully resisting opponents each and every day.
Not for nothing, but haven't you noticed that no mma fighter ever started a thread or asked in honesty how to take down a "style x" fighter or how they would fight "style x" on the street?
Now again, MMA is a ruleset and not a style. The one thing the fighters will have in common is training (hopefully) with fully resisting partners when you grapple and strike. This is the heart of the argument here- resistance.
Just by virtue of "I do MMA" doesn't make one a good fighter. Nor does "I do BJJ" anymore than "I do traditional style X" would make you a poor fighter. To be fair, I have worked with and taught some guys that were "professional" fighters and they were godawful bringing me back to the points I made before.
Last edited by TJ-Jitsu on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Try yourself out in a prison, fighting somewhere like in El Salvador; then tell us how you got on with the resisting theory. |
Interesting suggestion....
Unfortunately for your argument I used to be a prison guard. I've got some insight for you- being a felon or a "bad dude" doesn't instill magical fighting prowess. In fact if you want to see some interesting examples you can even look up felony fights on YouTube. There was one where a modestly trained mma fighter in shad smith fought a guy who "just didn't care" because he was "crazy." As you would have guessed, shad toyed with the guy, because he's a pro fighter.
You're failing to justify any arguments you make and are trying to appeal to fantasies
"These guys MUST be crazy killers because they're in PRISON"
I fail to see the correlation between being a criminal and being a skilled fighter. Watch those felony fights. Those guys are- you guessed it- former felons. You'll see just how "not professional" they are.... |
So you are saying that, the best fighters are cage fighters due to practicing resistance training with each other; whereas traditional martial artists are below them in every way, skill wise due to this reason? |
I know that this question isn't directed to me. I apologize for my perked up ears on the bold type above...
I'm a traditional MAist, and I'm not below anyone; I can not, and I will not subscribe to that, nor will my resolve subscribe to that either. Shindokan is all about resistance training from day one.
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That's the point I'm trying to make... |
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on the post.
