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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject: Disqualifications in MMA are Reality on the Streets Reply with quote

Disqualifications in MMA is the reality on the streets.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=urXw56px5og

It has often been said that "traditional martial artistsis are no match for MMA fighters" when in fact traditionalists learn to fight and defend on the street.

Timidity is a disqualification in MMA for MMA fighters, on the street timidity isn't really a worthwhile strategy to take advantage of, due to getting oneself terribly injured or even killed.

MMA fighters are being elevated too high, from experience I know what goes up must come down; just a matter of time.

Traditional martial arts has being compared to as a babysitter service or virtual martial arts with acrobatic dance gymnastic also described as exercises for the elderly public.

Has the fighting spirit of traditional martial arts been consumed by the MMA mania?
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MatsuShinshii
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Disqualifications in MMA are Reality on the Streets Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
It has often been said that "traditional martial artistsis are no match for MMA fighters" when in fact traditionalists learn to fight and defend on the street.


It depends on which perspective you are looking at this from. We as "traditional" practitioners would not do well in a cage, without proper training, due to the rules and the fact that these guys are world class ground fighters and the vast majority of traditional striking arts has only a limited exposure to ground fighting and the intent is to be able to get back to our feet not stay on the ground. However an MMA fighter that would typically go to the ground would get destroyed on the streets as there is in most circumstances more than one opponent.

It's two different worlds. There are rules for each and neither necessarily subscribes to the others rules of combat.

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Timidity is a disqualification in MMA for MMA fighters, on the street timidity isn't really a worthwhile strategy to take advantage of, due to getting oneself terribly injured or even killed.


I think I know what you are trying to say but I feel this is a huge mistake. Showing weakness when confronted by an unknown opponent is a bad idea even if it is to faint. It encourages an attack.

Look, I know that most modern day Karate schools teach you to walk away and there is "no first strike", but... this doesn't work when your opponent is intent on doing you harm. I'll let the Modern Karate guys do the whole "no first strike" (Karate Ni Sente Nashi) stuff and I will strike first.

Violence is a mind set and if you are not ready to attack with full on intent you will be destroyed in a street confrontation because as stated before there are most likely more than one attacker whether you see them or not. It's a pack mentality. Maybe this is the military in me but I'm not turning the cheek when my life is on the line. I will be the one to go home to my family.

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Traditional martial arts has being compared to as a babysitter service or virtual martial arts with acrobatic dance gymnastic also described as exercises for the elderly public.


Depends on your definition of "traditional". McDojo's call there art traditional if it's more than 5 years old. Sport Karate is nothing more than acrobatics and dance as stated. As far as the elderly goes. There are few elderly in an old school dojo and most are highly graded and have practiced and taught for most of their lives. This is akin to asking if BJJ is for the elderly because you see Helio Gracie in the Dojo. I doubt anyone would say he's just an elderly man getting his exercise. In terms of modern Karate and McDojo's, this might be true.

If you are talking about traditional as in old school, adhering to the founders teachings without the modern spin or Japanization then your statements could not be more false. Real traditional Karate is a combat effective fighting method that is based on combat tested applications derived by the founders themselves, their teachers of through externally introduced arts. The mantra is effective. If it doesn't work we don't practice it. High, flying, spinning, flipping kicks will not be seen in an old school Dojo. Blocks in the sense of the way they are practiced in modern Karate will not be seen in old school dojo. Strikes, kicks, weapon and body conditioning(hardening), body shifting, body mechanics in terms of power generation and speed, what some would call dirty fighting, submissions, locks, re-directions, throws, sweeps, takedowns, vital and cavity targeting, etc, etc, and yes a bit of Ne Waza will be seen in old school Dojo. Getting hit and hitting will also be seen in old school Dojo. point sparring or what I like to call patty cakes will not be seen.

Unfortunately those that decided to meet the fast food generations expectations, those that turned their art into a sport, and those that do not deserve to pass on the art (frauds and McDojo owners, Belts for bucks) have destroyed the reputation and taken the attention away from REAL Karate (Toudi) and placed it on them, thus inspiring the comments you listed above.

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Has the fighting spirit of traditional martial arts been consumed by the MMA mania?


Again depends on your definition. Yes in terms of sport and McDojo's. Wouldn't you turn to a combate based art if you wanted to learn to defend yourself? I know if I was learning the weak techniques meant for sport and not having any understanding of the Kata past how many jumps and flips I can put into it to catch the judges attention I would run to the nearest MMA school.

To be honest if I lived close enough I would be thrilled to learn how to become proficient in ground fighting. I'll be honest this is one weak spot in my art that leaves us vulnerable. So I don't even think it's an issue of better, it's more of an issue of something to complement our art.

As far as stand up (striking) I'll stick with Toudi/Ti. Just my 2 cents on the subject.
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Tempest
Green Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
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Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, Matsu, depending on what part of Kentucky you are in, Allan Manganello is not too far from you, over in Louiseville, you could do a LOT worse for groundfighting.

I wouldn't worry too much about the idea that sport fighters are not effective in the street.
I hear that a lot. And yet, when it comes time to go hands on with violent people, time and again its the wrestlers, Judo, and BJJ guys along with an assist from some of the boxers and Muay Thai guys on a given squad of violence professionals that have to carry the load.

Most of the time I would rather have a former college linebacker than most martial artists backing my play when I go in to a difficult place and deal with difficult people.

Violence is, as Matsu said, a mindset and if someone is not willing to train and compete in an alive manner, I have no confidence that they are going to magically manifest that mindset once they are pumped full of adrenaline they aren't used to and dealing with real, full speed attacks they aren't used to.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UFC started off as close as possible to street fighting with only three rules; with combatants in a variety of different sizes.

The table has turned.

Now there are thirty rules to contend with; which are things that generally happen in a street fight, now illegal in UFC.

The earlier UFC fights were very brutal with hair pulling and kicking to the face when the opponent is on the ground.

Point being, traditional martial artist training for self defense purposes, are more lethal than cage fighters due to their intentions are for street wise protection "Urban combat"

Different set of rules if caught fighting on the street compared to a cage.

Martial artist will have their skills turned against them in a court of law, even if they are in the right at the time; this is where the art of fighting without fighting is worth practicing, with intelligent none violent intent, for court room self defense purposes.

The ground and pound method of the UFC is something required for them to do but not a standard requirements for the traditionalists, that will land them in jail if caught practicing it on the streets, by the police.
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MatsuShinshii
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Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
You know, Matsu, depending on what part of Kentucky you are in, Allan Manganello is not too far from you, over in Louiseville, you could do a LOT worse for groundfighting.

I wouldn't worry too much about the idea that sport fighters are not effective in the street.
I hear that a lot. And yet, when it comes time to go hands on with violent people, time and again its the wrestlers, Judo, and BJJ guys along with an assist from some of the boxers and Muay Thai guys on a given squad of violence professionals that have to carry the load.

Most of the time I would rather have a former college linebacker than most martial artists backing my play when I go in to a difficult place and deal with difficult people.

Violence is, as Matsu said, a mindset and if someone is not willing to train and compete in an alive manner, I have no confidence that they are going to magically manifest that mindset once they are pumped full of adrenaline they aren't used to and dealing with real, full speed attacks they aren't used to.


I think you read me wrong. I have nothing whatsoever against MMA and I am not saying that it is not effective. I was merely pointing out a few differences in how we go about things and what our individual weaknesses are.

I have no doubt that a elite trained fighter can more than handle themselves outside of the cage. However there is a different mindset on the streets. I merely pointed out that if a fighter that is prone to taking it to the ground did so on the streets it would be a lapse in judgement because it is the exception vs the rule that a guy would be alone. MMA trains to beat one and "old school" Toudi (Karate) trains to beat more than one.

Before someone brings this up and skews my statement. No this does not mean that Karate guys can take on a multitude of opponents or that we are super bad "you know what". It was merely a mindset, prepared, awareness thing.

I wrestled in high school and I also took Judo for years but as you are probably aware it is not the same as JJ or BJJ when it comes to ground fighting the intent is different. Learning to turn a hopeless situation into a submission is awesome to me personally. Growing up, my mind set was to stay on my feet which is were I live. Our techniques (Ne Waza) were meant to get out of the situation and get back to our feet. So to be on your back on the ground was and is the worse place for a guy like me. It's a huge weakness.

You could not pay me to enter that cage unless you changed the rules excluding ground fighting. Maybe when I was younger and dumber I would have gladly entered the cage but I am older and much wiser and understand my weaknesses. No thanks.

I am basically an hour away depending on traffic and where in Louisville he is. I know there are gyms in Cincinnati as well. My issue is time. I work a ton of hours during the week and then I have my art, family and of course sleep. Finding two hours of time a few times a week is difficult at best. Something would have to give. Louisville is just not in the cards at this time in my life.
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MatsuShinshii
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
UFC started off as close as possible to street fighting with only three rules; with combatants in a variety of different sizes.

The table has turned.

Now there are thirty rules to contend with; which are things that generally happen in a street fight, now illegal in UFC.

The earlier UFC fights were very brutal with hair pulling and kicking to the face when the opponent is on the ground.

Point being, traditional martial artist training for self defense purposes, are more lethal than cage fighters due to their intentions are for street wise protection "Urban combat"

Different set of rules if caught fighting on the street compared to a cage.

Martial artist will have their skills turned against them in a court of law, even if they are in the right at the time; this is where the art of fighting without fighting is worth practicing, with intelligent none violent intent, for court room self defense purposes.

The ground and pound method of the UFC is something required for them to do but not a standard requirements for the traditionalists, that will land them in jail if caught practicing it on the streets, by the police.


Alan,

I absolutely understand your argument but I have to differ with you on a few things.

For one, although being slammed in a jail cell is a concern, it would be my last concern if attacked. My mindset, be it right or wrong to others, is to take the creep out anyway necessary so I can see my family. I get that it's a concern but again I go back to mentality. Fighting without fighting may work in theory but when faced with a guy intent on taking your life, all the small talk in the world won't change the outcome. It's better to be judged by 12 than to be cared by 6. So I would break the typical traditional Karateka mantra of love and peace and kumbaya singing around the camp fire but this goes back to the changing of the original intent of Toudi by the Japanese and latter by the western society. It was developed for war. Loose your weapon... use your hands and feet. It's meant as a means to protect your life. I can think of no better situation to use my training than if confronted with a person intent on doing me or my family harm.

If I can talk my way out of it I'll know within seconds, if I can walk away I'll know within seconds, if the intention is there you only have two options IMHO, fight or flight. Personally getting a knife in the back or beer bottle smashed against the back of my head as I try to run away is not my idea of self protection. Maybe it's the Marine in me but I'm not turning away until the threat is nullified. If that lands my happy alive hiney in jail then so be it.

Two - I don't know if I can agree with your comment concerning lethality. Again I was pointing out one scenario. I don't think I would go as far as saying that a trained Karateka is more lethal than a trained MMA guy on the streets. If the MMA guy has good stand up skills and is highly trained the outcome would be the same as a Karateka. The difference I was pointing out is the tendency to take things to the ground. On the streets this would more than not be a mistake.

It's a difference in mentality and training not lethality. A common street thug with absolutely no training can knock out a trained fighter if the conditions are right and if he continues to bash the guys head into the curb I would call him lethal. I think the statement should be more on situational awareness and understanding the environment in which you are engaging in combat rather than lethality.

I think it's up for discussion in either arena. There have been Karateka do very well in MMA and I think if confronted by a hoodlum an MMA fighter would be able to more than hold there own or better. Again I think it comes down to training practices, situational awareness and environment rather than lethality.

An elderly man or lady with a broken hip in a wheel chair holding a guy with the intention of use it is lethal. That word is subjective based on circumstance.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
UFC started off as close as possible to street fighting with only three rules; with combatants in a variety of different sizes.

The table has turned.

Now there are thirty rules to contend with; which are things that generally happen in a street fight, now illegal in UFC.

The earlier UFC fights were very brutal with hair pulling and kicking to the face when the opponent is on the ground.

Point being, traditional martial artist training for self defense purposes, are more lethal than cage fighters due to their intentions are for street wise protection "Urban combat"

Different set of rules if caught fighting on the street compared to a cage.

Martial artist will have their skills turned against them in a court of law, even if they are in the right at the time; this is where the art of fighting without fighting is worth practicing, with intelligent none violent intent, for court room self defense purposes.

The ground and pound method of the UFC is something required for them to do but not a standard requirements for the traditionalists, that will land them in jail if caught practicing it on the streets, by the police.


Alan,

I absolutely understand your argument but I have to differ with you on a few things.

For one, although being slammed in a jail cell is a concern, it would be my last concern if attacked. My mindset, be it right or wrong to others, is to take the creep out anyway necessary so I can see my family. I get that it's a concern but again I go back to mentality. Fighting without fighting may work in theory but when faced with a guy intent on taking your life, all the small talk in the world won't change the outcome. It's better to be judged by 12 than to be cared by 6. So I would break the typical traditional Karateka mantra of love and peace and kumbaya singing around the camp fire but this goes back to the changing of the original intent of Toudi by the Japanese and latter by the western society. It was developed for war. Loose your weapon... use your hands and feet. It's meant as a means to protect your life. I can think of no better situation to use my training than if confronted with a person intent on doing me or my family harm.

If I can talk my way out of it I'll know within seconds, if I can walk away I'll know within seconds, if the intention is there you only have two options IMHO, fight or flight. Personally getting a knife in the back or beer bottle smashed against the back of my head as I try to run away is not my idea of self protection. Maybe it's the Marine in me but I'm not turning away until the threat is nullified. If that lands my happy alive hiney in jail then so be it.

Two - I don't know if I can agree with your comment concerning lethality. Again I was pointing out one scenario. I don't think I would go as far as saying that a trained Karateka is more lethal than a trained MMA guy on the streets. If the MMA guy has good stand up skills and is highly trained the outcome would be the same as a Karateka. The difference I was pointing out is the tendency to take things to the ground. On the streets this would more than not be a mistake.

It's a difference in mentality and training not lethality. A common street thug with absolutely no training can knock out a trained fighter if the conditions are right and if he continues to bash the guys head into the curb I would call him lethal. I think the statement should be more on situational awareness and understanding the environment in which you are engaging in combat rather than lethality.

I think it's up for discussion in either arena. There have been Karateka do very well in MMA and I think if confronted by a hoodlum an MMA fighter would be able to more than hold there own or better. Again I think it comes down to training practices, situational awareness and environment rather than lethality.

An elderly man or lady with a broken hip in a wheel chair holding a guy with the intention of use it is lethal. That word is subjective based on circumstance.
Mat; I think you have read me wrong:

Fighting without fighting (physically) in a court room, on the contrary in the street, do what you need to do with passion and resolve, to protect yourself, family and friends; with every weapon available to you.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Disqualifications in MMA are Reality on the Streets Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Has the fighting spirit of traditional martial arts been consumed by the MMA mania?

Not even in the slightest, whatsoever!! Not yesterday, not today, and not tomorrow.

The MMA craze is the rage on the page nowadays, and there's nothing I can ever say that will convince the proponents of the MMA, and especially MMA fans.

No matter the style of the MA, I believe that this idiom fits well...

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”~John Lydgate

Say what you want to say, whomever you are, I don't give a bent pin what's in the mind of those who have already written off traditional MA. Why?? Because it just isn't that important.



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singularity6
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seems to be a lot of talk about how "traditional martial arts" are threatened. MMA, McDojos, the mindset of the new generation, etc have all been named as culprits. I realize these things are frustrating, but I feel that martial arts is alive and well. Sure, you have your knuckle heads who only want to wear shorts and spar all day. I think that's always been the case, in some sense, and it won't go away. There are also those who simply want a black belt with minimal effort, just as there are those who want a degree with minimal effort. But there are also those who value tradition, hard work and a sense of belonging. I'd look at McDojos and MMA as a gateway to the traditional schools. People will get bit by the MA bug, and will thirst for more!

The conversations pertaining to "who can beat who" are becoming a bit stale. It's all a matter of what one trains for. People who train for cage fights will likely get stomped when competing in an Olympic-style tournament, and vice versa. Sure, luck, talent and experience will factor in, but I'd say it's mostly training.

When it comes to fights on the street, let's take some time to consider how many people actually train in combat sports. Based on my experience with people, I'd say maybe 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 might actually try something out at some point in their life. Many quit within the first few months. Most will be done after a year, or so. Maybe less than 1 percent of those who try it actually stick it out to for 5 years (roughly the time it'd take to earn a black belt in many styles.) Ultimately, I'd estimate that anyone who has more than a year of training (with sparring experience) will likely have an upper edge on the streets.
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tallgeese
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure. That's an accurate statement. Here's a couple of things to think about.

First, training methodology matters. Like REALLY matters. It's almost, note: almost, more important that what you're learning. MMA excels in it's methods. Fighters that walk in the door within 6 months will have had endless rounds on the pads, hit hard with their hands, have some decent kicks, be able to shoot a single and defend it, and will (most importantly) sparred heavily quite a bit. That's a tactical advantage on many (not all) trad artists who within 6 months will have very static movements and a couple of katas.

Second, as a result of the sparring, they KNOW what it's like to get hit, stuffed, and fight from bad positions. In fact, they've done this not only against other strikers, but wrestlers and grapplers. They've faced multiple modes of aggression already is a huge equalizer.

Last, any MMA gym you walk into places a high premium on conditioning. Making the body harder to kill cannot be understated. Sure, trad arts condition, but the average MMA gym will be light years ahead on this than your run of the mill trad school. It just has to do with the level of movement and stress they place the fighters under.

Now, please note I'm not arguing that MMA is some ultimate self defense art, I'm just pointing out that MMA builds attributes that WORK in conflict. It's lack of "illegal" techniqes is so over sold it's not funny. Here's the thing about illegal tactics, they are illegal in completion for a reason. Now, how hard to you practice these in trad arts? Ever really gouge someone's eye out to train? Over and over again to make it perfect? Of course not. How many times has an MMA fighter thrown a jab? Literally hundreds of thousands? Likely. Which tool will be more prepared for combat? Repetition matters.

Again, no one is better, but to sell a system short because of a lack of illegal tactics is selling it short.
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