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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
If venues like the UFC allowed the competitors to do anything and everything, yet with only empty hands, allowing no rules to be just that...NO RULES...no tapping out...no ref to save the down and out...no time limits...nothing...

Just how long do we truly believe that that type of combatant would last??



One round.

LOL ROFL I deserved that!!

Let me reword my question, if I'm capable...

Just how long do we truly believe that that type of business model would last??



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Tempest
Green Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
If venues like the UFC allowed the competitors to do anything and everything, yet with only empty hands, allowing no rules to be just that...NO RULES...no tapping out...no ref to save the down and out...no time limits...nothing...

Just how long do we truly believe that that type of combatant would last??



One round.

LOL ROFL I deserved that!!

Let me reword my question, if I'm capable...

Just how long do we truly believe that that type of business model would last??




Well, if we consider the Romans, potentially a couple of centuries if we could get the whole slavery/fame thing worked out.

Seriously though, no one has EVER fought with absolutely no rules. There are always rules, we just may not always know what they are. For instance, on a battlefield there are rules of engagement, and rules of strategy that dictate the movement of troops.
In the largely mythical "street fight", there are rules of law, but also social rules that must be obeyed or there will be consequences.
The presence of rules merely modifies the implementation of the art for a given encounter. Unless the rules are so restrictive that they prevent CONTACT, there is nothing about having rules that makes a fight less real or less realistic.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Geneva Convention tried to put some kind of humanity, in to the treatment of prisoners, how much of it was disrespect, in favor of genocide?
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Tempest
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
The Geneva Convention tried to put some kind of humanity, in to the treatment of prisoners, how much of it was disrespect, in favor of genocide?


A LOT of it was disrespected, but that being said that doesn't mean that if you are an american soldier on a battlefield you can choose to do so.

And even so, genocide is largely a function of having one group with one set of rules and another group with a different set of rules.
In order to commit genocide, you must dehumanize the target to make it ok to act this way towards them. And even then, there are always consequences to such things.

Freeing yourself from rules is not some kind of superpower in a fight any more than robbing banks is some kind of great get rich quick scheme.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which reminds me of what the dumbest bank robber said to the police, of "Why did you try to rob the bank" his answer "That's where the money is"
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MatsuShinshii
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
The Geneva Convention tried to put some kind of humanity, in to the treatment of prisoners, how much of it was disrespect, in favor of genocide?


Rules are great as long as all sides abide by them. This is seldom the case.

Many rules have been past to make war less horrific but it always boils down to one persons personal ethics, morals and humanity. So in effect the rules for all only matter if the rules for one coincide with them. Not only do both sides have to agree to abide by them but it comes down to one soldier at one instant in time and one act and the decision made at that time.

Throughout history the rules have been circumvented in individual acts.

Rules are there to keep honest moral people from becoming dishonest immoral people. They do little when it comes to those without that same moral compass.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More like rules are in place so that when they are broken, its clear to see what the infraction was so that it can be dealt with.

Most people are going to follow the rules. Its kind of similar in regards to how locks only keep out honest people.
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Tempest
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
The Geneva Convention tried to put some kind of humanity, in to the treatment of prisoners, how much of it was disrespect, in favor of genocide?


Rules are great as long as all sides abide by them. This is seldom the case.

Many rules have been past to make war less horrific but it always boils down to one persons personal ethics, morals and humanity. So in effect the rules for all only matter if the rules for one coincide with them. Not only do both sides have to agree to abide by them but it comes down to one soldier at one instant in time and one act and the decision made at that time.

Throughout history the rules have been circumvented in individual acts.

Rules are there to keep honest moral people from becoming dishonest immoral people. They do little when it comes to those without that same moral compass.


I mostly agree with this, and with Bushidoman as well. But, like I said before, freeing yourself from rules is not some kind of super power that will suddenly let you do things under an Adrenal Stress Response that you haven't practiced under those conditions. Regardless of one's beliefs on the matter, there is a reason that most people whose job it is to do violence to other people on a regular basis, and who are skilled and experienced in that job, and who train regularly, all pretty much train in one or more of the "Combat Sports", because by choosing, for training and development and even competition purposes, to act within a specific set of rules, you avoid the training scars that come from having to lower the contact level and reduce the movement speed for certain techniques.

I can absolutely SLAM someone with a Harai Goshi in training, on the mats, at full speed and power and land on them with my full 220lb bodyweight. This is safe and can be practiced a LOT till it is an automatic response to certain stimuli.

Thing is, if I do this to someone on the street, on concrete, who doesn't know how to fall, I can pretty much guarantee that it is more likely to be a fight ender than any number of eye-pokes, groin-strikes, or throat punches or even just regular punches unless I trained boxing regularly.
The key to developing something effective is aliveness because it leaves the least damaging training scars.

This is something even the military has realized with it's weapons training now. Scenario training and exercises are being made as realistic as possible to reduce training scars for people going down range.
If you are training for self defense, you owe yourself no less in terms of training.
The proven most effective way to simulate the adrenal stress response, physical demands, and mental resilience requirements of a physical altercation is combat sports training and competition.
Choosing to limit yourself within the rules enables a higher level of performance than would be available to someone who didn't put the effort in to, as it were, 'learn to color inside the lines'.
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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Try yourself out in a prison, fighting somewhere like in El Salvador; then tell us how you got on with the resisting theory.


Interesting suggestion....

Unfortunately for your argument I used to be a prison guard. I've got some insight for you- being a felon or a "bad dude" doesn't instill magical fighting prowess. In fact if you want to see some interesting examples you can even look up felony fights on YouTube. There was one where a modestly trained mma fighter in shad smith fought a guy who "just didn't care" because he was "crazy." As you would have guessed, shad toyed with the guy, because he's a pro fighter.

You're failing to justify any arguments you make and are trying to appeal to fantasies
"These guys MUST be crazy killers because they're in PRISON"
I fail to see the correlation between being a criminal and being a skilled fighter. Watch those felony fights. Those guys are- you guessed it- former felons. You'll see just how "not professional" they are....
So you are saying that, the best fighters are cage fighters due to practicing resistance training with each other; whereas traditional martial artists are below them in every way, skill wise due to this reason?


Just to drop my 2 cents in here, felons are typically predators, and predators typically seek out weaker targets (younger as in youth or underdeveloped, injured or old, or they prefer to take an unwary target by surprise). I don't typically like to make an analogy like this, but watch any nature show on National Geographic Channel, and watch the hunters hunt. They aren't taking down the greatest specimen in the herd; the cull off the young or weak or old and feeble, and that's who they attack. Human predators, felons, do the same thing. A murderer is rarely charged as a murder because the person got into a fight that started fair and then got out of hand. It was likely premeditated, and done in a fashion that put the victim at a disadvantage. A blindside, a weapon used, or more than one attacker used. They try to use their size and perceived "craziness" as a way to intimidate others. When it comes to someone who has had a modicum of training, those things fail.

So the felons in prison probably isn't the best analogy.

Also, its important to consider that there are different types of felonies. A person felony is of the type that someone probably attacked another. Drug and alcohol related felonies are what we call non-person felonies, so they usually don't fall into the same categories of being rough-and-tumble like person felons.
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