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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27701
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
If a person has a gun, unless your superman or wearing a bullet proof vest, and has the intended purpose of using it to harm or kill you and is not at zero distance, (ok when does this happen? can our cops here join the conversation? When does a bad guy with the intent to shoot you walk right up on you to zero distance before shooting?) the only chance you have is if the guy can't shoot. In this case run and hope he misses. Adrenalin is coursing in BOTH of you and you have a better chance of leaving unscathed by running than trying to close the distance to try one of the worthless self defense moves most instructors teach you. If the guy does come up on you it's typically to rob you in which case your belongings are not worth the risk of your life trying to be a hero.


I can help with this a bit. A high percentage of gun fights (or violence involving a firearm) in the civilian population happen within 3 to 5 feet from the assailant. I'm sorry, I don't have a number for you, but I think its upward of 80%. Maybe Alex has some better stats.

In the Police Krav Maga program I've been through, I've trained both long gun retention and disarms and pistol retention and disarms. They tell us up front in regards to gun disarms that these disarms pertain to the type of attack in which the armed individual is using the gun to intimidate, threaten, or take something from you or take you somewhere against your will. So, its the situation in which a suspect puts a gun in your face and begins talking and threatening you for whatever reason. They have other options for those in which a person draws or presents a gun and just pulls the trigger.

With all that said, I would say that situations dealt with in the civilian population would be different than those dealt with in the military, especially during active duty.

Quote:
Better choice, forget the fancy self defense moves and get your concealed carry and learn how to shoot well under duress if your that worried about it. Other than that you're just wasting your time IMHO.


Good to know both. The problem I see with concealed carry, and I tell this to everyone who is even thinking about thinking about carrying concealed, they have to make sure to they know how they are going to carry it, where at on their person, and they have to train on how to draw and get to threat ready position from where they plan to carry it. Its so much more than just learning how to shoot the gun.


It maybe where I live but I've never even entertained carrying a gun except during hunting season and that is just to deal with Coyotes during bow season. That and I don't purposely travel back alleys or go to the local drug hang outs. I don't put myself in sketchy situations. I guess I think of this as common sense that going into a bad neighborhood or walking down dark alleys is probably something that you should avoid. I have never found myself in a situation like this so I have never felt the need to carry a gun or to teach gun disarms.

Don't get me wrong, back in the 80's and 90's my association was on the so called self defense kick and they taught disarms. After seeing it from the real side of gun use I have never understood why you would even attempt to disarm someone with a gun. For one the chances of being shot are high because you are essentially taught to trap the hand with the gun but in real life the opponent doesn't hold still to apply your ultra cool technique and it is a fraction of a second and your shot. The other thing I don't understand about disarms is the fact that you are in effect trying to not only get the gun but hold the assailant. Why? If your going to commit to engage, you shouldn't be doing so with locks or stripping the gun, you should be taking them out (I mean dead). Neutralize the threat all together.

I'm sure if practiced you could have a margin of success against a percentage of attackers. In my mind this equals shot the other percentage. Unless your life is at risk why would you increase your odds. As soon as you go for the gun you commit that person into defending themselves which mean using it.

Maybe I'm wrong but if an idiot actually gets up in my face with a gun, thats to intimidate you to get something, typically your cash. In knowing this I can only think of a few reasons you would engage them rather than letting them have what they want and allowing them to run away.
1. if their demeanor changes - they get upset or become angry. Your life is at risk.
2. if you just want to show off your new disarming skills and be on TV. Hero complex.
3. you have a death wish or like to gamble with your life and those around you. suicidal or thrill seeker.

To me there is only one reason to engage someone carrying a gun. My life is in jeopardy. In which case i'm not going to disarm the creep and detain him for police. I'm going to use deadly force and neutralize them. If not I'm going to just allow him to take my wallet and then I'll call my bank to cancel my cards, call the police and make a report and go home to my family, which at the end of the day is all most of us want to do.

I also get what you are saying, however if I ever find myself in this type of situation, I think I would just give them the cash. The thing that most MAist's do not consider in this scenario is the fact that rounds (bullets) travel beyond the confrontation area and even if you are successful in disarming the perp someone else may not be so lucky if a round gets squeezed off. That and 95% of the time if I'm out in area's that something like this would occur (Parking lots, sports outings, etc.) it is a high likely hood that my wife or family members would be with me. I don't think it's worth the risk to disarm someone that is desperate enough to rob someone at gun point with the sole goal of taking their cash and running away. I can make more cash but you can't make another family member.

And I appreciate the stats and don't doubt them. I guess we have a bunch of stupid criminals in the world. If I were bent on taking someones life I wouldn't walk up on them to within arms reach to shoot them so this scenario never even crossed my mind. I wouldn't think anyone would be this stupid.


I realize that I answered your question, but maybe not completely. First off, I'd clarify that the disarms I teach are not what you would call fancy. They involve the principles of redirecting, control, attack, and takeway. We do a lot of striking in our gun disarms. The main thing is to stick to the principles.

Also, keep in mind that I'm speaking in the realm of police defensive tactics, not the citizen who is being robbed at gunpoint.

You also mentioned some comments about "hero complex" or "thrill seeker." I don't necessarily see it that way. I do think it is important to evaluate every situation you are in before taking any action, but I also think that if someone wants to stand up to someone trying to take their things, then that is up to them. I would not put them at fault for the actions of another who attacked them.

That aside, I don't necessarily disagree with the points you have made. A gun defense can be risky, but so can a knife defense, or any open-hand defense against an unarmed attacker. The goal is to educate oneself, train smart, and be smart when it comes time.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bushido_man96,

Well said. I understand your view point from a police perspective because if someone has pulled a gun on a cop the situation is escalated to a bad place.

I get your points and agree to an extent. If I felt my life was in danger (there are obvious signs) then you have little choice but to take action because at that point you have to assume that your going to get shot either way and you have to take the chance. However, all to often, I have heard over the years students saying I would do this or that and oh I wish someone would try that. In all reality most petty crimes have one intended purpose and that is to take your money. Possessions that can be replaced. Executing a disarm because you can doesn't mean you should. You actually put yourself at higher risk by attempting this rather than giving the goon the few bucks they are asking for.

To me life, mine or my families, is worth more than the few dollars I keep in my wallet. Everything can be replaced. I can cancel and get new credit cards, and I can make more money. You can never replace your life or that of your families.

All I'm saying is if it's a non-violent crime, I'm giving them the wallet every time. If I see intent in their eyes I'll do what I have too. However and again I have never been in this situation and really don't go into area's where this is a problem. Avoidance is just plain old common sense.

As far as the hero complex goes, we all know those guys that look for a chance to use their skills. It's those same guys that whine (if they're lucky) when things go wrong but they took the chance anyway. This is not a hero and should not be construed with real hero's. They just want to be one and will risk anything to get their face on TV.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27701
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
I get your points and agree to an extent. If I felt my life was in danger (there are obvious signs) then you have little choice but to take action because at that point you have to assume that your going to get shot either way and you have to take the chance. However, all to often, I have heard over the years students saying I would do this or that and oh I wish someone would try that. In all reality most petty crimes have one intended purpose and that is to take your money. Possessions that can be replaced. Executing a disarm because you can doesn't mean you should. You actually put yourself at higher risk by attempting this rather than giving the goon the few bucks they are asking for.


To the bold, I hear you, and I agree. I don't wish for the opportunity to have to actually use one of these defenses, nor do I ever want my fellow officers to be in that position.

You are right about the petty crimes, and yes, it is usually better to just hand over the wallet (I rarely carry cash as it is, so its just my cards). But, I'm of the opinion that if you don't want to turn it over, and you make that decision to use your skills, then fine by me. I won't judge it. The consequences, however, might be severe. I guess what I'm saying is that regardless of how I would handle it, I'm ambivalent to how another might do it.

Quote:
To me life, mine or my families, is worth more than the few dollars I keep in my wallet. Everything can be replaced. I can cancel and get new credit cards, and I can make more money. You can never replace your life or that of your families.


Agreed, 100%.

Quote:
All I'm saying is if it's a non-violent crime, I'm giving them the wallet every time. If I see intent in their eyes I'll do what I have too. However and again I have never been in this situation and really don't go into area's where this is a problem. Avoidance is just plain old common sense.


Again, agreed. In the long run, its the best bet, I think.

Quote:
As far as the hero complex goes, we all know those guys that look for a chance to use their skills. It's those same guys that whine (if they're lucky) when things go wrong but they took the chance anyway. This is not a hero and should not be construed with real hero's. They just want to be one and will risk anything to get their face on TV.


I agree that there are these guys out there, and they can be dangerous to others.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2144


PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
I get your points and agree to an extent. If I felt my life was in danger (there are obvious signs) then you have little choice but to take action because at that point you have to assume that your going to get shot either way and you have to take the chance. However, all to often, I have heard over the years students saying I would do this or that and oh I wish someone would try that. In all reality most petty crimes have one intended purpose and that is to take your money. Possessions that can be replaced. Executing a disarm because you can doesn't mean you should. You actually put yourself at higher risk by attempting this rather than giving the goon the few bucks they are asking for.


To the bold, I hear you, and I agree. I don't wish for the opportunity to have to actually use one of these defenses, nor do I ever want my fellow officers to be in that position.

You are right about the petty crimes, and yes, it is usually better to just hand over the wallet (I rarely carry cash as it is, so its just my cards). But, I'm of the opinion that if you don't want to turn it over, and you make that decision to use your skills, then fine by me. I won't judge it. The consequences, however, might be severe. I guess what I'm saying is that regardless of how I would handle it, I'm ambivalent to how another might do it.

Quote:
To me life, mine or my families, is worth more than the few dollars I keep in my wallet. Everything can be replaced. I can cancel and get new credit cards, and I can make more money. You can never replace your life or that of your families.


Agreed, 100%.

Quote:
All I'm saying is if it's a non-violent crime, I'm giving them the wallet every time. If I see intent in their eyes I'll do what I have too. However and again I have never been in this situation and really don't go into area's where this is a problem. Avoidance is just plain old common sense.


Again, agreed. In the long run, its the best bet, I think.

Quote:
As far as the hero complex goes, we all know those guys that look for a chance to use their skills. It's those same guys that whine (if they're lucky) when things go wrong but they took the chance anyway. This is not a hero and should not be construed with real hero's. They just want to be one and will risk anything to get their face on TV.


I agree that there are these guys out there, and they can be dangerous to others.
When martial artists are wishing to be attacked to show off their skills, well this is showing a low level of understanding and appreciation for what they have learned; their teachers in some places would be ashamed of students such as these.

The balance is not there, physically matching intellectually or should it be just considered as immaturity?
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27701
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that's a good point, Alan. But, I also think that its a phase that many MAists go through, somewhat wishing for an opportunity to prove to themselves that their skills will work when called upon. Its something instructors need to continually address throughout the course of training their students to try to quell that desire.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2144


PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I think that's a good point, Alan. But, I also think that its a phase that many MAists go through, somewhat wishing for an opportunity to prove to themselves that their skills will work when called upon. Its something instructors need to continually address throughout the course of training their students to try to quell that desire.
Good points Bushido_man96.

TOPIC
Disqualifications in MMA are reality on the streets

Is this a true and fair statement?

Here are some disqualifications in mma, to make your judgment by

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=urXw56px5og
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I think that's a good point, Alan. But, I also think that its a phase that many MAists go through, somewhat wishing for an opportunity to prove to themselves that their skills will work when called upon. Its something instructors need to continually address throughout the course of training their students to try to quell that desire.
Good points Bushido_man96.

TOPIC
Disqualifications in MMA are reality on the streets

Is this a true and fair statement?

Here are some disqualifications in mma, to make your judgment by

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=urXw56px5og


I would say yes, but not a statement that you can draw many conclusions from.
I could just as easily say that disqualifications in Boxing are reality in Judo or vice-versa and while it would be a true statement, it wouldn't be one that adds much value to a discussion because I can't draw any directly useful conclusions from it.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2144


PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I think that's a good point, Alan. But, I also think that its a phase that many MAists go through, somewhat wishing for an opportunity to prove to themselves that their skills will work when called upon. Its something instructors need to continually address throughout the course of training their students to try to quell that desire.
Good points Bushido_man96.

TOPIC
Disqualifications in MMA are reality on the streets

Is this a true and fair statement?

Here are some disqualifications in mma, to make your judgment by

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=urXw56px5og


I would say yes, but not a statement that you can draw many conclusions from.
I could just as easily say that disqualifications in Boxing are reality in Judo or vice-versa and while it would be a true statement, it wouldn't be one that adds much value to a discussion because I can't draw any directly useful conclusions from it.
You are very clever Tempest. Can't really give out awards but you have most certainly earned my upmost respect

Here is a very challenging question:

"Joe Rogan recommends Wing Chun"

Is this a true and fair statement?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9KF8-d_ovq4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3mZJlyIYGOw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lbCNCDi8Omc
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14329
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If venues like the UFC allowed the competitors to do anything and everything, yet with only empty hands, allowing no rules to be just that...NO RULES...no tapping out...no ref to save the down and out...no time limits...nothing...

Just how long do we truly believe that that type of combatant would last??




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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2144


PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
If venues like the UFC allowed the competitors to do anything and everything, yet with only empty hands, allowing no rules to be just that...NO RULES...no tapping out...no ref to save the down and out...no time limits...nothing...

Just how long do we truly believe that that type of combatant would last??



One round.
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