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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Shoto4Life wrote: |
| Five katas dont really make sense though. I think Funakoshi's orignal 15 kata syllibus is what makes the most sense and what Im going to adhear to. |
But, years ago, the old masters would often times only practice one kata. I think either way is ok.
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Shoto4Life
Yellow Belt
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
Posts: 58
Styles: Traditional Karate
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thats not fact. Masters had to hand them down based on memory. Had to practice them.
For a practioner its probably good to pick five and master them.
For style it makes sense to have more for depth, choice and variety of the style. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't say that they only knew one kata, but that they would practice one. I believe one story about Funakoshi goes that he was allowed to practice only the Naihanchi kata for his first 7 years of training?
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tenshinka
Orange Belt
Joined: 09 Aug 2008
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Shoto4Life wrote: |
Thats not fact. Masters had to hand them down based on memory. Had to practice them.
For a practioner its probably good to pick five and master them.
For style it makes sense to have more for depth, choice and variety of the style. |
Actually, it is fact. It was not until the late 1800's and early 1900's that Karateka started practicing more than one, or a few kata. Many Masters before then would only have 1 or 2 kata, that were passed down in their lineage. In fact, Motobu Udun Te had NO kata.
I'm pretty sure that the collecting of many Kata did not come about until Matsumura, and Itosu's time. |
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Shoto4Life
Yellow Belt
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
Posts: 58
Styles: Traditional Karate
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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That’s true Funakoshi did train Tekki for like ten years straight or something like that.
What doesn’t make sense about it is that back then they mostly trained the kata, as they weren’t allowed to train out in the open so kihon wasn’t really done - only kata in secrecy. Also kumite didn’t come along until later with Japanese influence. So seems kinna silly that they only had the one kata they trained. Lore does dictate that Tekki was the only original Okinawan kata though.
So I guess I dunno. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read "My way of Life" recently so I'm not sure about the katas Funikoshi was training on.
There is also a wealth of knowledge in those old forms that the previous generations had a far better understanding of than what we do today, save for maybe a few systems out there than can trace back to the originals. A sinlgle form may well have contained hundreds of mental cues for combat, not merely techniques.
I know, I'm hardly a kata proponant and quite frankly, I'm pretty sure that I can't name 5 katas, let alone do them. Still, for those of the old guard who truely knew what the movements were representing I can see how they would have been helpful for the time. And perhaps not as many were needed due to the densly packed information in each. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| tenshinka wrote: |
| Shoto4Life wrote: |
| For style it makes sense to have more for depth, choice and variety of the style. |
It was not until the late 1800's and early 1900's that Karateka started practicing more than one, or a few kata. |
I think that the main reason the number of katas practiced grew has to do with the advent of the belt system. With each new belt comes new testing requirements, and forms fit the bill.
| tallgeese wrote: |
| Still, for those of the old guard who truely knew what the movements were representing I can see how they would have been helpful for the time. And perhaps not as many were needed due to the densly packed information in each. |
Iain Abernethy takes this approach to his kata research. You ought to look him up, just for kicks (no pun intended..  ).
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I see his name come up quite a bit around here. I even checked out some stuff on amazon in regards to another thread.
I guess it's time to get that ordered and check it out. |
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macox
White Belt
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Olympia, WA
Styles: shudokan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:11 am Post subject: |
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I only know 5
pinan nidan
empitake
pinan shodan
kihon shodan
kiso kata
my favorite 2 are empitake, and pinan shodan
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Calvin: "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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doug_kissaki
Yellow Belt
Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 68
Location: NJ, USA
Styles: Goju, Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, Kissaki Kai
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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As early masters would travel and learn new techniques, kata was used as a method for them to remember techniques so that they could return and teach them. Kata is simply a form of "shorthand" I've heard it said that each kata (at least the original, classic katas) is an entire system of self defense unto itself.
It is true that students would train specific katas for years at a time. This is because it takes years to truly master a kata. By "master" I do not simply mean being able to do all the moves very well. Mastery includes an in-depth knowledge of the kata's bunkai.
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Doug
www.kissakikai.com |
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on the post.
