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infinitehand
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 14 May 2013
Posts: 25
Location: Macon, GA
Styles: Okinawa Goju-Ryu

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I do not believe Kata are necessary to systems to impart fighting skills to someone. Many forms of martial arts produce incredible athletes and fighters without the use of Kata.

Kata is THE MOST important aspect of Karate training. In Karate, everything is kata. When we do "Kihon" we're doing Kata. When were doing "junbi undo" or preparatory exercises, were also doing Kata, when were doing partner work or fighting were doing Kata. Everything in Karate can be traced back to Kata. Even Jackie Chan said it in the new "Karate Kid" movie said it, I don't remember the exact quote but it says "everything in life is Kung fu, putting on your jacket etc." this is Kata. You live Kata.

Some people are not interested in this and that's fine.

Additionally: When we fight we don't bounce around and were not doingi it for points. We think how can I use Kata, the principles techniques etc. This is the emphasis in my Dojo at least
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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is an old thread, but thought I'd throw my 2 cents at a few points here.

bushido_man96 wrote:
tallgeese wrote:
If a movment drill is engraining poor habits, then it's worth should be suspect. The case I always point to is the long stances and the hands chambered at the waist. It's poor body mechanics for a real fight. Continually pressing your body into that muscle memeory will ensure that you're only making the situation worse in a fight.


I would normally agree with this statement. However, I have noticed that I do not have this problem when I spar or do self defense work. I always do a pretty good job of keeping my hands up at these times. Sometimes I have been able to use the pulling back actions of the arms in some applications. I also do decent jab/cross combinations while not pulling the opposite hand back to the ribs.


I've never had a problem keeping my hands up in kumite (we don't train for point sparring), and I've never trained in boxing, MT, or the like. Full chamber punches aren't just for developing full-range motion muscle memory in beginners. You're right that full-range chamber punching isn't necessarily ideal in real fights. However, as bushido_man96 says, the retraction of a punch into full-chamber position has applications. One of which is it's used as a hiji-ate to an opponent behind you. When we do multiple opponent training drills in our dojo, that's one of the bunkai/oyo that we instill into our students to use.

infinitehand wrote:
Kata is THE MOST important aspect of Karate training. In Karate, everything is kata. When we do "Kihon" we're doing Kata. When were doing "junbi undo" or preparatory exercises, were also doing Kata, when were doing partner work or fighting were doing Kata. Everything in Karate can be traced back to Kata. Even Jackie Chan said it in the new "Karate Kid" movie said it, I don't remember the exact quote but it says "everything in life is Kung fu, putting on your jacket etc." this is Kata. You live Kata.


Absolutely...well said
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lowereastside
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 211

Styles: kung fu

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Forms/Kata Reply with quote

Forms/kata have a purpose - the problem I have with forms is that most systems have to many - some Kung Fu styles have over 60 Forms. and many karate teachers have made or added other forms into the curriculum. It just never stops. Well just my 3 cents.
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a few in our style, 28 I think. Wing Chun only has 3, Bruce Lee only learnt 2 of them, but he had the formless style
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28901
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My issue with the forms in our system is we don't do any kind of applications training with them. Some will say there aren't any there, and othes will say there are some there, descendant from the Shotokan applications. Either way, I'd like to do a bit more with them.
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our Application of Kata or Bunkai is the soul of our Karate. This is where our style of Karate is! Without it there would be no style, no Karatedo. Karatedo with no Kata is not Karatedo, Kata with no Bunkai is not Kata, it's just Aerobics!
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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Forms/Kata Reply with quote

lowereastside wrote:
Forms/kata have a purpose - the problem I have with forms is that most systems have to many - some Kung Fu styles have over 60 Forms. and many karate teachers have made or added other forms into the curriculum. It just never stops. Well just my 3 cents.


Agreed... Matsubayashi-Ryu has 18 individual kata and 7 partner kata; I used to think it was almost too many, until I started learning about other arts and that some have as many or more as you mention!

Harkon72 wrote:
Our Application of Kata or Bunkai is the soul of our Karate. This is where our style of Karate is! Without it there would be no style, no Karatedo. Karatedo with no Kata is not Karatedo, Kata with no Bunkai is not Kata, it's just Aerobics!


Great post
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15406
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what kata should be really called? Transition Drills. Not just in movements, but in techniques as well.


Imho!!



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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
You know what kata should be really called? Transition Drills. Not just in movements, but in techniques as well.


Imho!!




Hmmm... Interesting thought...


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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2275
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like doing kata as it does have movements in them that we can potentially use for self defense purposes.

Although there are some movements in some kata that make us all go "when the heck would you use that?"

One thing i have learnt from many instructors (even ones that i have visited) have all said that even though that kata might seem pointless but they have a message that you can do different techniques in different ways that can be effective.

at my school and my old dojo we have to do kyogi's that are basically how we would use kata in a practical setting. it doesn't mean our partner attacks us whilst doing the kata. but it means that we dissect the kata to use it. And one of the requirements for our kyogi is that they have to be practical. They can involve knife attacks, gun attacks, or any type off attack that you can come up with.

It does come in handy for those surprise attacks that you aren't really expecting.

I have been doing both bunkai and kyogi for the last 6 years and i have seen hundreds of variations for saifa and seeiunchin katas (both Goju-Ryu versions)

and some of those techniques i have found myself using in kumite.
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