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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 726
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Bulltahr wrote:
9 dans, there are 3 8th dans in our organization, all over 70 years old....


Iím pretty sure we technically have 10. Kaicho has reportedly stated heíll never accept a 10th dan because heíll never stop learning. Heís allegedly been offered it a few times by various budo organizations.

Iíd imagine heíll be promoted to 10th dan posthumously when the time comes (I hate saying that).


Yes, I thought of putting something like that in my original post. I wonder what everyone's obsession is with having 10 dans, maybe it's a special number in Japanese culture, but I doubt it.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29040
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Korean culture, 9 is the special number, so going to 10th dan in Korean styles doesn't make much sense.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1872

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why so many if not all karate styles have 10 dan levels is because when karate was introduced to Japan from Okinawa, its structure was copied from what had been established for judo by the founder, Kano. Kano became friends with Funakoshi and other Okinawans teaching on the mainland. He was instrumental in spreading his new evaluation system to karate as well as all others Japanese martial arts, which had previously used an older system better suited to much fewer students.

In Okinawa, before the kyu and dan systems became the norm, an instructor knew each student personally and evaluated them by how long they had trained. Techniques were much less codified and curriculums werenít as clearly defined as they are today.

Instructors just taught whatever they knew and in as much depth as possible. Students learned whatever they could, and were encouraged and introduced to different instructors if and when necessary. Experts were masters of two, at most three forms. Nowadays this is very rare and in some cases even frowned upon. This is too bad, because there is so much to learn between styles.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15511
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The reason why so many if not all karate styles have 10 dan levels is because when karate was introduced to Japan from Okinawa, its structure was copied from what had been established for judo by the founder, Kano. Kano became friends with Funakoshi and other Okinawans teaching on the mainland. He was instrumental in spreading his new evaluation system to karate as well as all others Japanese martial arts, which had previously used an older system better suited to much fewer students.

In Okinawa, before the kyu and dan systems became the norm, an instructor knew each student personally and evaluated them by how long they had trained. Techniques were much less codified and curriculums werenít as clearly defined as they are today.

Instructors just taught whatever they knew and in as much depth as possible. Students learned whatever they could, and were encouraged and introduced to different instructors if and when necessary. Experts were masters of two, at most three forms. Nowadays this is very rare and in some cases even frowned upon. This is too bad, because there is so much to learn between styles.

Solid post!!



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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 726
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The reason why so many if not all karate styles have 10 dan levels is because when karate was introduced to Japan from Okinawa, its structure was copied from what had been established for judo by the founder, Kano. Kano became friends with Funakoshi and other Okinawans teaching on the mainland.

Very interesting, so it brings on the next question, why did Judo have 10 dans/levels? Is it because it's a nice round number? Or some other reason? Why not 12 levels or 6? In these modern days there seems to be a bit of an obsession about 10th dan, and I don't know why.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29040
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
Instructors just taught whatever they knew and in as much depth as possible. Students learned whatever they could, and were encouraged and introduced to different instructors if and when necessary. Experts were masters of two, at most three forms. Nowadays this is very rare and in some cases even frowned upon. This is too bad, because there is so much to learn between styles.


I agree. It seems this method caused interesting hybridizations between practitioners, as those who felt more comfortable with one thing over another would mold their style that way.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15511
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulltahr wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The reason why so many if not all karate styles have 10 dan levels is because when karate was introduced to Japan from Okinawa, its structure was copied from what had been established for judo by the founder, Kano. Kano became friends with Funakoshi and other Okinawans teaching on the mainland.

Very interesting, so it brings on the next question, why did Judo have 10 dans/levels? Is it because it's a nice round number? Or some other reason? Why not 12 levels or 6? In these modern days there seems to be a bit of an obsession about 10th dan, and I don't know why.

Obsession oftentimes are fueled by ego, and ego promotes wants over needs.

I was the main proponent within our Governing Body as its Kaicho to remove any and all Soke types, and with that, Judan was removed from our ranking system. Gone forever.



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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 726
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Bulltahr wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The reason why so many if not all karate styles have 10 dan levels is because when karate was introduced to Japan from Okinawa, its structure was copied from what had been established for judo by the founder, Kano. Kano became friends with Funakoshi and other Okinawans teaching on the mainland.

Very interesting, so it brings on the next question, why did Judo have 10 dans/levels? Is it because it's a nice round number? Or some other reason? Why not 12 levels or 6? In these modern days there seems to be a bit of an obsession about 10th dan, and I don't know why.

Obsession oftentimes are fueled by ego, and ego promotes wants over needs.

I was the main proponent within our Governing Body as its Kaicho to remove any and all Soke types, and with that, Judan was removed from our ranking system. Gone forever.



Agree 100% Bob, if syllabus is all learnt by say 6th or 7th dan and you have a few more dan grades for time etc, I don't see how may of those would be required......Except for Master Ken of course............
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15511
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulltahr wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Bulltahr wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The reason why so many if not all karate styles have 10 dan levels is because when karate was introduced to Japan from Okinawa, its structure was copied from what had been established for judo by the founder, Kano. Kano became friends with Funakoshi and other Okinawans teaching on the mainland.

Very interesting, so it brings on the next question, why did Judo have 10 dans/levels? Is it because it's a nice round number? Or some other reason? Why not 12 levels or 6? In these modern days there seems to be a bit of an obsession about 10th dan, and I don't know why.

Obsession oftentimes are fueled by ego, and ego promotes wants over needs.

I was the main proponent within our Governing Body as its Kaicho to remove any and all Soke types, and with that, Judan was removed from our ranking system. Gone forever.



Agree 100% Bob, if syllabus is all learnt by say 6th or 7th dan and you have a few more dan grades for time etc, I don't see how may of those would be required......Except for Master Ken of course............

LOLOL Colin, now that's funny...Master Ken....LOLOLOL

We still have Kudan and below; we still conduct Testing Cycles all the way to Hachidan. Kudan is reserved for the current Kaicho, even though I sternly forced the SKKA to conduct a highly strict Testing Cycle for my Kudan. In my hearts of hearts, I only consider myself a Hachidan because that's the last Dan rank I earned from my Sensei before he passed away.



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SLK59
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 05 Nov 2020
Posts: 94
Location: USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shotokan Karate of America (Shotokan Ohshima Karate-do) has five dan levels, because godan was the highest grade awarded by Gichin Funakoshi. Within SKA there are no honorary ranks, i.e. each of the five dan levels must be earned via testing.
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Last edited by SLK59 on Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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