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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2362
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have no formal governing body for my club with the exception of the Australian Karate Federation and Karate Victoria.

They pretty much are just there for the support of clubs and tournaments. But don't dictate anything for clubs in regards to grades, curriculum etc.

But we have 10 Dan Grades at my club. But my Chief Instructor hasn't set any formal requirements for past 5th Dan as of yet. As he himself is a 5th Dan.
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ryanryu
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 51
Location: Maryland, USA
Styles: Okinawan Goju-Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll chime in here because my original school had a unique rank structure I haven’t heard anyone else mention.

We technically had 13 Dan ranks – the first three black belt ranks were interspersed with “ho” or half-steps. The first black belt rank was Shodan-ho, then Shodan, Nidan-Ho, then Nidan, Sandan-Ho, then Sandan. After the full Sandan, it went up in increments of 1 from there until Judan.

As far as I could figure, the intentions were good when this was set up so that students had some time to learn/digest between rank tests and it spread out the requirements. But the real result was it prevented anyone from reaching any of the higher Dan ranks or completing the system. (It's no coincidence that I learned Supairenpei in a different dojo - I was still 3 ranks away from it!)

I think the rank structure exists to help students and organizing a curriculum has been beneficial to passing on the art - but a certain flexibility is probably needed when thinking about these things.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30214
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our school also has those "ho" ranks; we call them "recommended" ranks. 1st degree recommended, then 1st degree; same for 2nd and 3rd.
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DarthPenguin
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 914
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very interesting, i've never come across these types of rankings anywhere i have trained here in the UK. We appear to be very vanilla over here for most styles that i have encountered: a variety of coloured belt grades and then dan grades going in single steps up to a maximum of 10 (is possible i have just not encountered any of the more esoteric ones)

One thing i have noticed on here is that there seems to be a lot more variety / flexibility in the USA. Might simply be a function of the sheer size of the nation since it is (in my mind at least) pretty much 50 country sized entities in a collective. When i view it that way, then things being a little different in New York say when compared to Oregon is like things being different in the UK and the middle east, which wouldn't be a surprise!
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2735
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
Well, the Shorinkan has 10 dan ranks, although I'm not with the organization anymore. The Bugeikan doesn't have dan ranks for KishimotoDi, at all--just a Shihan license you can test for, eventually. For my own school, once COVID settles down, I think I'm going to get rid of the multiple levels of yudansha, entirely. The closest I would have is a "curriculum black belt" and an "instructor black belt."


What do you mean by "curriculum black belt" and "instructor black belt?"


It's a good thing this post got brought back to life--I completely missed this question! I actually ended up tweaking this, a bit, but the idea was to have a black belt rank for those who learn all of the adult curriculum that I established as being required, and another black belt rank for those who want to be instructors, which would require them to ALSO know the youth curriculum, as well as the Bugeikan material, so that they were equipped to teach everything that I teach. I ended up just going with one black belt rank, and a Shidoin certificate for those who learn the rest of the material and want to teach.

DarthPenguin wrote:
very interesting, i've never come across these types of rankings anywhere i have trained here in the UK. We appear to be very vanilla over here for most styles that i have encountered: a variety of coloured belt grades and then dan grades going in single steps up to a maximum of 10 (is possible i have just not encountered any of the more esoteric ones)

One thing i have noticed on here is that there seems to be a lot more variety / flexibility in the USA. Might simply be a function of the sheer size of the nation since it is (in my mind at least) pretty much 50 country sized entities in a collective. When i view it that way, then things being a little different in New York say when compared to Oregon is like things being different in the UK and the middle east, which wouldn't be a surprise!


That is actually a very good way to look at the USA. I know a lot of Europeans have a hard time realizing just how big the USA is, and I generally describe it very much as you have. I think that part of the variety and flexibility, though, comes from the very individualistic mentality that tends to be fostered here, for better or worse. We're very opinionated, and want to do things our own way, lol.
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Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society
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aurik
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 521
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryanryu wrote:
I’ll chime in here because my original school had a unique rank structure I haven’t heard anyone else mention.

We technically had 13 Dan ranks – the first three black belt ranks were interspersed with “ho” or half-steps. The first black belt rank was Shodan-ho, then Shodan, Nidan-Ho, then Nidan, Sandan-Ho, then Sandan. After the full Sandan, it went up in increments of 1 from there until Judan.

As far as I could figure, the intentions were good when this was set up so that students had some time to learn/digest between rank tests and it spread out the requirements. But the real result was it prevented anyone from reaching any of the higher Dan ranks or completing the system. (It's no coincidence that I learned Supairenpei in a different dojo - I was still 3 ranks away from it!)

I think the rank structure exists to help students and organizing a curriculum has been beneficial to passing on the art - but a certain flexibility is probably needed when thinking about these things.


I trained at an ATA school for a little while, and they did a very similar thing. Starting at first degree, you'd first have to earn a "first degree recommended" rank, followed by a "first degree decided rank". The recommended rank is temporary, while the decided is permanent. Of course, they required you to do a number of midterm tests between ranks as well, each one with its associated test fees. But of course, that's ATA for you.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30214
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aurik wrote:
ryanryu wrote:
I’ll chime in here because my original school had a unique rank structure I haven’t heard anyone else mention.

We technically had 13 Dan ranks – the first three black belt ranks were interspersed with “ho” or half-steps. The first black belt rank was Shodan-ho, then Shodan, Nidan-Ho, then Nidan, Sandan-Ho, then Sandan. After the full Sandan, it went up in increments of 1 from there until Judan.

As far as I could figure, the intentions were good when this was set up so that students had some time to learn/digest between rank tests and it spread out the requirements. But the real result was it prevented anyone from reaching any of the higher Dan ranks or completing the system. (It's no coincidence that I learned Supairenpei in a different dojo - I was still 3 ranks away from it!)

I think the rank structure exists to help students and organizing a curriculum has been beneficial to passing on the art - but a certain flexibility is probably needed when thinking about these things.


I trained at an ATA school for a little while, and they did a very similar thing. Starting at first degree, you'd first have to earn a "first degree recommended" rank, followed by a "first degree decided rank". The recommended rank is temporary, while the decided is permanent. Of course, they required you to do a number of midterm tests between ranks as well, each one with its associated test fees. But of course, that's ATA for you.


Yep. My first structured MA experiences came through the ATA. I held a 2nd dan and Instructor Certification.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30214
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
Well, the Shorinkan has 10 dan ranks, although I'm not with the organization anymore. The Bugeikan doesn't have dan ranks for KishimotoDi, at all--just a Shihan license you can test for, eventually. For my own school, once COVID settles down, I think I'm going to get rid of the multiple levels of yudansha, entirely. The closest I would have is a "curriculum black belt" and an "instructor black belt."


What do you mean by "curriculum black belt" and "instructor black belt?"


It's a good thing this post got brought back to life--I completely missed this question! I actually ended up tweaking this, a bit, but the idea was to have a black belt rank for those who learn all of the adult curriculum that I established as being required, and another black belt rank for those who want to be instructors, which would require them to ALSO know the youth curriculum, as well as the Bugeikan material, so that they were equipped to teach everything that I teach. I ended up just going with one black belt rank, and a Shidoin certificate for those who learn the rest of the material and want to teach.


I see what you mean here. What you are suggesting sounds like a separate instructor certification.

DarthPenguin wrote:

One thing i have noticed on here is that there seems to be a lot more variety / flexibility in the USA. Might simply be a function of the sheer size of the nation since it is (in my mind at least) pretty much 50 country sized entities in a collective. When i view it that way, then things being a little different in New York say when compared to Oregon is like things being different in the UK and the middle east, which wouldn't be a surprise!


Quote:
That is actually a very good way to look at the USA. I know a lot of Europeans have a hard time realizing just how big the USA is, and I generally describe it very much as you have. I think that part of the variety and flexibility, though, comes from the very individualistic mentality that tends to be fostered here, for better or worse. We're very opinionated, and want to do things our own way, lol.


I've heard it said that in the UK, 100 miles is a long way, but 100 years is a very short period of time; in the US, 100 miles is a short way, but 100 years is a long time.
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R5ky
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 117


PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but the idea was to have a black belt rank for those who learn all of the adult curriculum that I established as being required, and another black belt rank for those who want to be instructors, which would require them to ALSO know the youth curriculum, as well as the Bugeikan material, so that they were equipped to teach everything that I teach. I ended up just going with one black belt rank, and a Shidoin certificate for those who learn the rest of the material and want to teach.


That's an intriguing concept; how long would one have to train before becoming a candidate for black belt? What are the distinctions between youth and adult curriculum?
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30214
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:
Quote:
but the idea was to have a black belt rank for those who learn all of the adult curriculum that I established as being required, and another black belt rank for those who want to be instructors, which would require them to ALSO know the youth curriculum, as well as the Bugeikan material, so that they were equipped to teach everything that I teach. I ended up just going with one black belt rank, and a Shidoin certificate for those who learn the rest of the material and want to teach.


That's an intriguing concept; how long would one have to train before becoming a candidate for black belt? What are the distinctions between youth and adult curriculum?
In the system I'm currently a part of, there really is no difference. All the material trained and tested on is the same.
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