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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 45
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lions Den,

You most likely are spot on in America as many Adults might not truly take it as seriously and kids are thrown in there from their parents,

But her in Japan, the Senseis are volunteers and there is a minimal fee. Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect. The kids story is the same, they are usuay forced to!

I think Martial Arts in America is for the most part about profit.

Greed and lust never mix well!

In Japan most Martial arts Dojos are a passion and not a business!
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DarthPenguin
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 134
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyler wrote:
Lions Den,

You most likely are spot on in America as many Adults might not truly take it as seriously and kids are thrown in there from their parents,

But her in Japan, the Senseis are volunteers and there is a minimal fee. Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect. The kids story is the same, they are usuay forced to!

I think Martial Arts in America is for the most part about profit.

Greed and lust never mix well!

In Japan most Martial arts Dojos are a passion and not a business!


I'd say that it is similar in the UK too for the most part. Most instructors basically charge the price for the hall rental and not much more. Only guys who really seem to do it "for a living" are bjj and mma schools, but even then there aren't too many of either.
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 136


PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
Tyler wrote:
Lions Den,

You most likely are spot on in America as many Adults might not truly take it as seriously and kids are thrown in there from their parents,

But her in Japan, the Senseis are volunteers and there is a minimal fee. Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect. The kids story is the same, they are usuay forced to!

I think Martial Arts in America is for the most part about profit.

Greed and lust never mix well!

In Japan most Martial arts Dojos are a passion and not a business!
considering the population differences Iíd say itís still generally true statement.
And I know Europe generally controls martial arts schools and I believe helps subsidizes them as part of national sports or something, so youíd have to convince national governments to institute such changes I believe.

I'd say that it is similar in the UK too for the most part. Most instructors basically charge the price for the hall rental and not much more. Only guys who really seem to do it "for a living" are bjj and mma schools, but even then there aren't too many of either.
Iíve heard that in Europe martial arts in many countries martial arts are regulated by the government so there you mighthave to convince the government to approve the changes.
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DarthPenguin
Orange Belt
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Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 134
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
DarthPenguin wrote:
Tyler wrote:
Lions Den,

You most likely are spot on in America as many Adults might not truly take it as seriously and kids are thrown in there from their parents,

But her in Japan, the Senseis are volunteers and there is a minimal fee. Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect. The kids story is the same, they are usuay forced to!

I think Martial Arts in America is for the most part about profit.

Greed and lust never mix well!

In Japan most Martial arts Dojos are a passion and not a business!
considering the population differences Iíd say itís still generally true statement.
And I know Europe generally controls martial arts schools and I believe helps subsidizes them as part of national sports or something, so youíd have to convince national governments to institute such changes I believe.

I'd say that it is similar in the UK too for the most part. Most instructors basically charge the price for the hall rental and not much more. Only guys who really seem to do it "for a living" are bjj and mma schools, but even then there aren't too many of either.
Iíve heard that in Europe martial arts in many countries martial arts are regulated by the government so there you mighthave to convince the government to approve the changes.


Tbh i've never heard of any government regulation for martial arts here in the UK anyway. The most i can think of is if an art is in the Olympics then they will be subject to the UK Olympic Committee and they may report to the government (not 100% on that one). Other than that i can't think of any governmental regulation / interference
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karatepastor
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 16 Oct 2021
Posts: 20
Location: Naples, FL
Styles: Boxing, Karate, Jui Jitsu

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: If Karate adopted the BJJ way of promoting Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:


What if the same concepts were applied to the Karate promotion system?
No kyu/dan exam board of 15 or more black belts, no routine gradings, and each student's progress was totally dependent on the dojo instructor.

Would this increase the quality of Karate?

Would it be as appealing to a younger, more fanatical audience as BJJ?


There advantages to both ways. I used to teach Karate using a specific curriculum and test times. Because of a move and COVID, I took some time off teaching and will restart later this summer. I've spent the last year training 4-5 days a week in BJJ. We also have been sparring once a week at a friend's Tae Kwon Do school.

I've learned a lot. The advantage in BJJ, in this regard, is that the instructor is free to promote in a kind of Budo Spirit of the Samurai way. The trouble is, when you do it by feel, there are unclear expectations. No tests means its subjective. That means it can feel arbitrary. The idea seems to be to nullify the focus on belts and stripes but for some people it can make it feel unfair.

I'll be modifying my teaching style but still using a test and known timeline. I just won't feel as obligated to make my curriculum rigid. We're training to get better and master basics. But the testing won't be exactly 17 techniques demonstrated, that sort of thing.
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ďA kata is not fixed or immoveable. Like water, it's ever changing and fits itself to the shape of the vessel containing it. However, kata are not some kind of beautiful competitive dance, but a grand martial art of self-defense - which determines life and death.Ē

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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 45
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:28 pm    Post subject: I Like that Reply with quote

Sounds like a great new style to not have gradings............The practicioner can only get the belt when they fully understand the move and how to apply it with confidence, grace, speed using posture and balance etc.

The Sensei then awards them the belt of rank. It would make the students strive to learn it in detail as it should be learned rather than dancing around just to get the belt for their own personal ego.

A lot of schools grade for a long time and it can often be a serious parade in which the student can't sleep etc. has to do all the calisthenics etc in front of a panel.

The instructor should incorporate a daily warm up routine with a little excercize, stretching and then go through the Kata and techniques etc. etc.
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 136


PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: I Like that Reply with quote

Tyler wrote:
Sounds like a great new style to not have gradings............The practicioner can only get the belt when they fully understand the move and how to apply it with confidence, grace, speed using posture and balance etc.

The Sensei then awards them the belt of rank. It would make the students strive to learn it in detail as it should be learned rather than dancing around just to get the belt for their own personal ego.

A lot of schools grade for a long time and it can often be a serious parade in which the student can't sleep etc. has to do all the calisthenics etc in front of a panel.

The instructor should incorporate a daily warm up routine with a little excercize, stretching and then go through the Kata and techniques etc. etc.
nothing would change, if promotion methods changed. If a student hadnít gotten an appropriate level of competency during scheduling advancement tests and an instructor advanced the student thatís not going to change with the other method, an instructor will just advance people who arenít ready, if thatís what an instructor is predisposed to do.
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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 380

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of my 20s was spent on boxing training and mostly being in the boxing community with very few competition. The last 4 years have been serious karate training.

Because of my boxing background, we learned that the most important criteria is to win fights without taking damage.


That's it! Nothing more, nothing less. Its that simple. After that, you move on and focus on paying your bills and spending time with your family and social circle and that is life. This is the value system of boxing and its based on hit and don't get hit. Its simplified to that level. Nothing else is relevant aside from negotiating for higher pay and maybe a percentage for attendance fee.


My point is, this attitude has carried to my karate training. My style is of course a mix of Japanese Karate and Taekwondo which pretty much is almost exactly like Tang Soo Do but without being in a TSD org. The reason I mention that is because I can walk to a session and we might focus on TKD footwork and working on transitioning to a low karate stance in a fluid way. This is how boxing works, you show up, work on your lead hand and changing angle to avoid a counter and you learn feints and body shots and level changes.

Its all just work work work on specific techniques. Belt simply exist to denotes who needs to work on what since a sensei might show up to a dojo and may not know everyone and so to keep the class structure orderly, the belt system separates the students from beginners, intermediate and advance. Final thing to say is, you can have a black belt that has good technique and he can run in to a white belt who has superhuman cardio. If the black belt gets beat, then he has to work on his cardio and not be left behind. So in a way, a black belt has to maintain their black belt status and so, you always have to be alert and vigilant. A belt system keeps students in check and it gives a teacher an organized class.
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RW
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 425


PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as a grappling art, BJJ can get away with things that a striking art such as karate can't.

In BJJ you can spar and spar and spar as close as possible to a real "fight" (in which only grappling is allowed) and it's safe and there's less risk of injury. Imagine if karate had full contact sparring only... there would be a bunch of busted noses and split lips, not to mention black eyes.

You can judge grading in BJJ by how well students perform in "fights" (rolling). They do it every day. You'd need to have full contact fights every day in karate too to be able to judge skill. At that point, kata would fade away too, since there is no incentive to learn then, you might as well just become great at full contact sparring since that's all it takes to get a black belt.
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R5ky
White Belt
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Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 18


PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In BJJ you can spar and spar and spar as close as possible to a real "fight" (in which only grappling is allowed) and it's safe and there's less risk of injury. Imagine if karate had full contact sparring only... there would be a bunch of busted noses and split lips, not to mention black eyes.


True, but what if all karate styles used Kyokushin-inspired strategies, avoiding head hits and focusing on chudan-level attacks?

but practice Jodan level during kihon or regular drills.



Along with kata and other exercises, they (Kyokushin) often practice sparring, which I assume is necessary for their Dan gradings.


Then, as the cherry on top, add the "promote when you're ready" policy.
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